An initiative of the National Academy of Public Administration, and the Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs and the Bobst Center for Peace and Justice, Princeton University Oral History Program Series: Policing Interview no.: L4 Interviewee: Iver Frigaard Interviewer: Arthur Boutellis Date of Interview: 28 July 2008 Location: KPHMQ Kosovo Innovations for Successful Societies, Bobst Center for Peace and Justice Princeton University, 83 Prospect Avenue, Princeton, New Jersey, 08544, USA www.princeton.edu/successfulsocieties BOUTELLIS: Today is the 28th of July 2008 and I am now sitting with Iver Frigaard who is the Police Commissioner with the UN Mission in Kosovo (UNMIK). We are today in the office of the police commissioner in the main headquarter building of the Kosovo Police. FRIGAARD: UNMIK police. BOUTELLIS: The UNMIK police. Thank you for your time first. Before we start the interview can you please confirm that you've given your consent to the interview. FRIGAARD: Yes, I have given my consent to the interview. I am under no pressure, I do it completely voluntarily. BOUTELLIS: I'd like to start by learning a bit more about your personal background in policing at home and how did you get involved in policing overseas. FRIGAARD: I am by background and education I am a lawyer. I have a military background as an officer in the artillery. I have, after my legal exam, I served as a judge, a Public Prosecutor. I prosecuted in the police. For most of my career I have been in international policing beginning with the security service that I served in 11 years. Then I spent 11 years in Interpol in France, came back to Norway and was requested to take a position with the UNMIK police as Deputy Commissioner for Crime. BOUTELLIS: That was in what year? FRIGAARD: It was last year 2007. I came to Pri?tina on the 8th of October, 2007 as Deputy Commissioner for Crime. That is basically my background and education. I also have the National Defense Academy from home. BOUTELLIS: So you arrived in 2007 as Deputy Commissioner For Crime. You stayed in that position for? FRIGAARD: I stayed in that position until I was nominated as Acting Police Commissioner since everybody in front of me had for one reason or another abandoned their positions. I think it was on the 25th of May this year that I was appointed by DPKO (Department of Peacekeeping Operations) Acting Police Commissioner. BOUTELLIS: When you arrived in 2007 as Deputy Police Commissioner for Crime with UNMIK can you describe briefly what were the objectives of the mission, how they were described to you and what was the status of public order and crime in the country? FRIGAARD: I was requested to take the positive by the then Police Commissioner Richard Monk basically I think because we knew each other from beforehand when he was in OSCE (Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe). I had the legal background and I think he appreciated that with regard to overall management of the crime pillar in UNMIK. It was required to have both management experience because there are a lot of people to be managed and, in addition, to have a legal background with regard to the challenges that the investigations of major crime, organized crime and war crime gives UNMIK. BOUTELLIS: Can you describe the status of crime in the country? What was the prevalence and what types of crime were the most common? FRIGAARD: This is a very challenging task and almost impossible to describe to understand the crime in this area. I think you have to have a certain historical background with regard to the Balkans in general and specifically with regard to the Kosovo question and the Kosovo within Yugoslavia and later Kosovo as part of Serbia. Also the location of Kosovo, north of Albania and the rest of Europe in a way. That is mainly drug related. Of course this reflects on Kosovo too which has been, to a great extent, without any efficient law enforcement authority for a longer period. They also have developed a certain criminal network which is the result of the armed conflict between Serbia, Kosovo and the international community represented by NATO. So this has been fertile ground for the development of criminal activity, criminal networks. If you would like a psychological explanation why it is like that I think you can find in the need for survival. This has been maybe the easiest way of surviving in a very turbulent and very difficult climate. BOUTELLIS: Can you describe the major challenges faced by the Kosovo Police Service when you took your position as head of the crime pillar? FRIGAARD: Yes, I think that this country previously was dominated by Serbia. For all practical purposes the Serbs were dominant in executive branches including the police definitely. This came to the extreme under the regime of (Slobodan) Milosevic which means that the international community and NATO expelled, so to speak, the Serbians from Kosovo. This was an immense challenge because most of the countries they have some sort of institutional memory, institutional knowledge with regard to policing. But this was not the case here so you started from scratch. They started by erecting educational institutions in the police field and educating, teaching people with an interest in law enforcement basic police investigative skills. It takes time to learn it. So we saw the main challenge that you had very few people with any knowledge about investigation or policing in general. So you started from nothing. BOUTELLIS: Since you took over as Acting Police Commissioner, head of the UNMIK police, or head of the police because UNMIK has an executive mandate in Kosovo, what would be the top challenges you say you face given maybe the historical context? FRIGAARD: I think it has been described by some journalists that the Kosovo Police, as it is called now, regretfully they deleted the word Service. BOUTELLIS: This is since the new Constitution, the new Police Law in June 2008? FRIGAARD: Yes, they gave the name Kosovo Police instead of Kosovo Police Service. It has been described as a success story from building, from starting from nothing to build, to create a sort of function police. With dedication by the international community and officers from UNMIK, international officers from UNMIK, they dealt with the Kosovo Police. It is functional, it is not perfect, but hardly any police service is perfect. There is a lot to do in the future too. To a certain extent it functions and what is more important, it has the respect at least of the population in general. People address the police and expect to be helped and will be helped by the police. This is important. Of course there are technicalities. You can criticize the report writing, the lack of investigation, the lack of securing the crime scene and to a certain extent the lack of dedication in the Kosovo Police but I think that partly this is cultural and maybe we from the northern part of Europe request too much of them. The huge obstruction to efficiency in the Kosovo Police is the very, very low salaries they are paid. They are underpaid so it is hardly surprising that you find corrupted police officers who take bribes on the street level. What is surprising is that you find police officers who are not corrupted, who are dedicated, who believe in what they are doing and dedicated to try to build a society based on the rule of law. There are idealists. BOUTELLIS: When you say very low salaries, it is approximately 200 for first year officers? FRIGAARD: The salary is for an ordinary police officer, 225 euros/month. That is below subsistence. You cannot feed your family on that. You do something else in addition to the police activities. I think that the government must understand that unless they make the police job attractive also economically they will have trouble with street level corruption. BOUTELLIS: Before we get into more details of the building of the police service there has been a huge emphasis on building a new police service by the international community and the donor community in general. How does the building of an efficient police service relate to other activities such as building the justice sector, the prison sector? FRIGAARD: It is interrelated. The police under this legal system is part of the law enforcement community. The policing is investigating the cases. When the police have finalized investigating the cases under this legal structure it will be passed. The cases will be sent to the prosecutor. The prosecutor is also involved in part of the investigation to give his consent in lawful interception for instance, to certain means of executive power. Unless the prosecutor decides and the courts complete the chain of law enforcement, we will have, we might have a lot of cases which are finished, concluded from the investigative side but they're piling up on the prosecutorial side and in the courts. There has to be a steady flow of these cases to have a functioning law enforcement system. BOUTELLIS: What is the situation currently? FRIGAARD: The situation today is that the police, which is 7000 people in this small state, they can conclude the cases but they're piling up by the prosecutor and by the courts. Hopefully this will improve when the European Union takes over because they have a much bigger amount of international prosecutors and judges than we have. BOUTELLIS: Can you describe in your role of now Acting Police Commissioner what is your daily routine like? What is a normal day or a normal week? FRIGAARD: The raison d'etre for UNMIK to be here is to transition the police activities to Kosovo Police. As of now approximately 80% of the police activity has been transitioned. They are responsible for 80% of the police activities in the country. So what I am doing, I have meetings with the Generals and management level in the Kosovo Police frequently. I listen to what they are doing and giving general advice, what should be done, what should not be done. As an example I might mention that I am very concerned that we will have political influence from the government in operational police activities, specifically with regard to lawful interception. Also it means that a newborn, undeveloped state without any constitutional experience, memory, knowledge, the politician might try to intervene with regard to certain police activity like lawful interception. That would be a tragedy, that would be very, very serious if the management level in the police with the police in their hand can refuse any interference from the political level. At present, you ask me what is my day like, at present I think this is a serious problem, a possible problem. BOUTELLIS: You've been Acting Police Commissioner since May so after the Unilateral Declaration of Independence of Kosovo in February, however the UNMIK retains an executive mandate, even after the Declaration of Independence and new Police Law. Have there been significant changes with the political developments of the last few months? FRIGAARD: No, I don't think so. We have had our discussions with the management of the Kosovo Police and I, when I came into this chair I stated quite clearly that according to my interpretation of the Security Council Resolution 1244 we do still have executive power on the police side. I have met no opposition from the Kosovo Police with regard to this. We have a very good and frank collegial cooperation with the Kosovo Police. We are more colleagues than monitors. We have a very transparent and open communication and we have explained that according to our view they will still need some assistance and advice with regard to policing in general. I think that they see that they agree to this and they see it themselves, that they are not full-fledged even if they have a constitution and made a law on the police. They still need assistance and advice. It manifests itself in certain cases which we have met. By far they are able to conduct this individually on their own. So I think that the attitude is realistic and pragmatic. They see the valued of continued international presence here. This goes for the complete international community, not only the police but whether it be UNMIK in general or EULEX, they still would like to see internationals taking part in the managing of the country. BOUTELLIS: You said that 80% of the function of policing has already been transitioned from the international police to the Kosovo Police. At the senior level, only, if I'm not mistaken, only the administrative pillar has been transitioned from UNMIK to the Kosovo Police. FRIGAARD: The administrative pillar has been transitioned, the crime pillar to a large extent has been transitioned. Border and boundary I'm not quite updated with regard to that, but I think that most of the border crossings are transitioned, apart from Gate 1 and 31. In the crime pillar we retain control over organized crime, war crimes and special investigations, which means where high-ranking people from the Kosovo establishment are involved. There is so much political pressure that we cannot leave this to the Kosovars for the time being. BOUTELLIS: So currently when UNMIK retains control of organized crime, war crimes and special investigations, is it completely staffed with international police or is it a mix? How does this function. FRIGAARD: It is exclusively international police. Some have local police on a daily basis but in specific cases they will be requested to leave the room so to speak. They don't take part in the investigation. An example of an interception which I touched on previously, in certain cases involving celebrities in the Kosovo community the internationals will exclusively deal with both the technical, administrative and listening side of the local interception, no Kosovar will be allowed to deal with that. That is partly because we want exclusive rights and we don't want leakages, partly due to the fact that there may be security risk to the people who know who deals with local interception. So they can say, "I was kicked out, I'm not dealing with it, I cannot inform you about anything." I'm not subject to any pressure because I don't have access to it. BOUTELLIS: A large part of the world of policing is intelligence gathering and situational awareness, how does this function when internationals are in charge of the investigation? How do you gather intelligence when the international police are solely in charge of these cases of organized crime? How do they deal with intelligence gathering in a foreign environment, in a foreign language? FRIGAARD: We have connected to KFOR intelligence units who monitor the local scene. They have the necessary linguistic skills. We have a very close cooperation with KFOR and a common intelligence cell used both by KFOR and UNMIK. In addition in the crime analysis section we have locals who have of course domestic knowledge about intelligence. They monitor the open sources to a great extent which is the main source for intelligence anyway. BOUTELLIS: So the idea was that as UNMIK is progressively withdrawing most of the work would be transitioned. What is going to happen to these subsections that are still under international control? FRIGAARD: It is not for me to reply to how EULEX is going to organize their activities, but as I understand it they will be basically a monitoring mission but they will have one executive element just like we have. Certain cases, maybe war crime, organized crime, special investigations, they will retain exclusive rights to do the investigation with regard to that. As I understand it EULEX will have basically a monitoring mission giving advice, continuing what we have started. As I said, I hope that they will have a much larger, I wouldn't say entity, but a bigger number of people responsible for prosecution and in the courts. Larger quantity of judges and prosecutors so that we can finalize the investigation that the police have initiated and concluded. BOUTELLIS: Now I'd like to move into some specific areas of policing. If you don't have any particular comments or you haven't been involved in it we'll just move to the next one. FRIGAARD: Fine. BOUTELLIS: The first one is recruitment. You haven't been directly involved in recruitment but are there some lessons that have been identified from the way recruitment strategies have been put in place in Kosovo. FRIGAARD: You mean recruitment to the international police? BOUTELLIS: Now we're focusing on the local police, the KP. FRIGAARD: I don't know very much about the recruitment in the KP but I think that taking into account the level of unemployment in this country the police academy should be able to recruit from the highest level, the best candidates for the police academy as I understand it. But I cannot verify it with figures. I understand that the number of people who would like to apply for positions at the police academy is quite high. BOUTELLIS: To your knowledge has there been a vetting-there has been a background check process, sort of a vetting process. How effective has it been in regards to maybe now the number of cases of misconduct and so on. FRIGAARD: Within the police academy? BOUTELLIS: Yes. FRIGAARD: There is a vetting process, one of the international elements in UNMIK is the vetting of judges and prosecutors for instance which is completely international, but there is a vetting process to all candidates for vacancies whether it be for the police academy or elsewhere. Just as a reflection upon that theme I would like to say that this is a family and tribal community and it is for the time being there is no very, very strong national identity feeling. They were part of Yugoslavia. If you see in the streets they use the Albanian flag frequently and they have their own flag, but how they identify themselves as Albanians or Kosovar or belonging to a tribal community or family I really don't know. But as far as I have read and understood is that the family connections and the tribal connections, ethnicity, links to the village and the community is quite strong. BOUTELLIS: Is this a concern? FRIGAARD: It is a concern and it is an experience which we have from, for instance, the people who have applied for positions in the Iraqi police, people who have done it in Jordan. They belong to criminal networks and they access the police to have access to information which they might use in a criminal context. I think we have the same here. If they come into a position they might directly misuse the information they have. They might sell it, they might use it to obtain influence in political circles, in criminal circles. This is a village, a small society where in certain places everybody knows everybody and everybody knows who deals with what be it trafficking in human beings, drug dealing, organized crime of sorts. BOUTELLIS: There was a vetting done by internationals during the recruitment process and throughout the training process as I understand. Is there-you said also there is also a vetting when a candidate applies for promotion, to access to a new post. What does it consist of? FRIGAARD: With regard to the police I don't know when they have a vetting process but definitely they have a vetting process before being accepted at the police academy. The vetting process conducted by the internationals is for people who have applied for positions as prosecutors, as judges in the local system here. We are vetting them to see that they are not connected, to the extent that we can control it, to criminal groups or criminal networks, political networks, that they have economic deficits. We find out what kind of car they drive and why they drive that kind of car. BOUTELLIS: The next area is training and professionalization. So the training at the police academy, now called the Training Center, was taken over by OSCE, it was not a UNMIK mandate, the UN international police mandate was the field training. Are there some particular lessons from the way that this has been done. This is an ongoing process of training. FRIGAARD: I am not familiar with that subject so I cannot answer, I don't know. BOUTELLIS: I'd like now to talk about international management, the structure of international management by which we mean the promotion system, the disciplinary system, record keeping etc. FRIGAARD: Within UNMIK or KP? BOUTELLIS: Again we're talking exclusively about the local police now. We'll turn to UNMIK and the international police at the end of the interview. So with regards to the KP how far along are we and what are the structures of internal management like at this point? FRIGAARD: Again this has been transitioned. It is up to the KP to deal with their own recruitment and promotions within their own administrative system. We are not interfering with that. BOUTELLIS: So all internal management is under the administration that has been transitioned. It was transitioned in 2006? FRIGAARD: I don't know, frankly I don't know. BOUTELLIS: So that UNMIK does not look any more into the way promotions are done, etc. FRIGAARD: No. BOUTELLIS: Do you have any particular thoughts about it? FRIGAARD: I think it is quite all right. It makes sense that the people who know each other, for better or for worse, that they are responsible for the recruitment and the promotion of their own officers. It is probably partly psychological process, likes and dislikes. Some objective elements which come into consideration, but we as internationals are not in the position to find the right candidates for the right positions. Regardless they have to make their own experiences, make their own errors and it is not a precise and concise science, on the contrary it is very humanitarian science with likes and dislikes, assessments and personal preferences come into consideration. BOUTELLIS: The next area is the issue of accountability both internal and external oversight. For a long time, up until now, the international community being that involved is doing a lot of the mentoring, but what are some of the structures for internal oversight and external oversight that have been created and how effective do you think they are? How mature are they? FRIGAARD: You're talking about audits? BOUTELLIS: Internal oversight meaning professional standards, and external oversights mechanism like the police inspectorate or civil society NGOs, etc. FRIGAARD: I have been in touch with some of those institutions occasionally, also in the crime pillar. It seems to me that they are okay, they are up and functioning but again until they grow, mature and have certain institutional security and safety, and that I feel that they have integrity and can operate individually as institutions, I think that for the time being they are fumbling a little to find their way. They're where they should be in the system. Of course they too are under enormous pressure from the hierarchy and from political groups and from interest groups that have specific interest with regards to specific persons. So they have a big challenge in blocking out external interference into what they are doing and to rely on their own competence and their own judgments. It's a very complicated task but it is very necessary. They will have a lot of activity, things to do because in an organization, and I'm surprised even in UNMIK to see that there is a lot of problems in human problems. It is incredible how grownups can write memos about the competence and qualities of their fellow beings. I think these institutions, the PIK, Police Inspectorate of Kosovo. BOUTELLIS: Which is under the Minister of Internal Affairs. FRIGAARD: It is supervising the professional standards. It is extremely important. They too have to make their own errors and find out the way forward. BOUTELLIS: So professional standards has existed for some years now, the PIK is rather new, 2006. Do you have any examples of cases where these have been involved and what have been the outcomes? FRIGAARD: No, I'm too green in this position so I don't know. I know that some of the cases we had in the crime pillar were sent to PIK but the outcome I don't know, I'm not aware of. BOUTELLIS: One incident was during the self-determination protest. During the protest there were a couple of civilians that were injured and two that I think died. FRIGAARD: Yes, two of them died due to rubber bullets, outdated rubber bullets, yes. BOUTELLIS: This was used by a UN FPU (Formed Police Unit) right? FRIGAARD: Yes. BOUTELLIS: Is the Police Inspectorate in that case involved or is it only a UN internal? FRIGAARD: I think it was UN investigation into that matter. I don't whether the Police Inspectorate was involved, but I think that the ombuds person in Kosovo had also documentation and made some comments with regard to that case. But I think it was basically a UN responsibility to investigate that. The FPU concerned was an international entity. BOUTELLIS: Right it was not Kosovo Police officers. So these are, they would be the professional standards within the Kosovo Police or the Police Inspectorate which is under the Minister of Internal Affairs, these are somewhat national institutions. Are there nongovernmental groups that have been active in monitoring the work of the police, whether it be human rights organizations or civil society to your knowledge? FRIGAARD: I think that we have OSCE is monitoring police activity and the address for complaints with regard to the police, I think that NGOs also are involved in evaluating, assessing police activities, but I cannot exactly name any entity on the spur of the moment. But definitely there are a lot of human rights organizations. Of course they are welcome to look at the activity of the police. BOUTELLIS: Earlier in our conversation you mentioned one of your greatest concerns was the possible political influence from the government, from politicians over the police officers. What are some of the strategies or efforts to try to professionalize the Kosovo Police so that it is not subject-are there any mechanisms that can be put in place against these kinds of influences? FRIGAARD: I think for one thing I think it indicated with regard to the Minister of Interior in Article V in the police law that he has no authority to interfere in the operational activities. For most developed countries this is self-evident. There is no need to underline that the politicians should deal with politics and shake hands with other politicians while investigations should be conducted by the police. They have no competence and no authority to deal with operational investigation. So this is quite clear. But a new nation does not have as stated the institutional memory, constitutional experience to understand where the limits of the politicians go. They would like to do a lot of things. Some might do it for ideological reasons and meaning well, but still there are certain limits and certain unwritten laws in western European countries at least where the politicians do not interfere. I think this is a concern not only with politicians but with regard to influential groups. For one reason or another financial power also gives certain people the feeling that they have the right to access something which in principle they are excluded from accessing. BOUTELLIS: Are there some particular instances where this has become an issue? Are there some specific indicators that lead to worries? FRIGAARD: I cannot point to a specific incident apart from telephones from the President to certain people where he wanted information about something. But I think the society in general is created in a way which gives certain groups, family, political groups, a feeling of extreme power which allows them to request information where they should not request it. But I am not able to testify in a court of law to this, it is an impression, a feeling I have. I have obtained it by discussing with people who are born and raised in this country. BOUTELLIS: The last section where we are focusing on the local police again. Is there any concern about non-state security groups, whether they be private security or other groups that could challenge the primacy of the role of the police in the country? FRIGAARD: There might be. As I understand it there are intelligence units linked to the different political parties which is inherited from the war of independence. The political groups have created their own intelligence apparatus. I don't know to what extent they are functional, but if they spy on other political groups and use the information they obtain to get power and influence, I think it will not disrupt but will influence some of the police activities. BOUTELLIS: We discussed a number of different areas. What are some of the broader challenges and maybe what are some of the tasks that in your opinion should be prioritized over others, again when looking at the Kosovo Police? What are some key priorities? FRIGAARD: One priority is salary. I think that there must be an improvement of the level of payment here. When they are paid decently I think that you can require more professionalism and discipline. I find that coming from a western European country it is amazing to see the lack of discipline in the police service here in basic things like using seat belts. It is in the traffic regulations here like in other civilized states. It is a paragraph obliging people to use seat belts. I don't know why. We had a project which tried to improve that, but there is a strange lack of discipline and respect for rules and regulations. You find that in general when you see all the plastic bottles and the garbage which are thrown everywhere. BOUTELLIS: The whole police service, or the majority of the police officers carry weapons. Are there any particular concerns regarding the lack of discipline and use of weapons? FRIGAARD: No, it is very rare that they misuse their weapons. We had some cases of suicide with their own guns but you find that everywhere where you have guns. But usually no, they are no displaying or using the weapons improperly. BOUTELLIS: What are the priorities? Salaries, discipline-. FRIGAARD: Salary, I think that salary is the main thing. You can request something from people who are paid decently but if you don't pay them decently they don't care. I think that we find a number of-in spite of difficult working conditions we find a number of police officers who are very dedicated, who are idealistic with regard to the creation of their own nation, to what they do. Professional standards with regard to competence, I think they will receive a lot of assistance from the international community. They will be given the opportunity to go abroad and study the police services of other countries. There is no lack of intelligence. I think that the prospects are quite good for the future. But in such a small country that they have 7000 police officers it is amazing. In certain states they have to reduce that amount. This is literally speaking a police state. In addition to all the police officers you have an (assortment) of security, private security businesses and the local army here. It seems that apart from those who are engaged in cafes and restaurant business, most of the people seem to be engaged in police and security. BOUTELLIS: When you say local army, there is no such army for Kosovo right now. FRIGAARD: It is, I think it is meant for the time being to be a civilian defense service. BOUTELLIS: So they do like the firemen-. FRIGAARD: But George W. Bush, what should I say, he has promised to give arms to the Kosovo army. I think what we don't need in this area is more arms. BOUTELLIS: One political issues over the Unilateral Declaration of Independence has been the tension with Serb ethnic Kosovo police officers. Can you describe briefly the chain of events and where are we now. FRIGAARD: Part of it is my responsibility, part of it is a political assessment, but when the Unilateral Declaration of Independence took place Belgrade told the KPS Serbs to stop working. It was a political threat or rather political pressure on the people who were of Serbian origin. They were told to close their bank accounts and not receive money from KPS. A number of people did that. According to the regulations in place they were suspended for a 90-day period. Unless they started working again according to the rules they would be fired. When we tried to implement that regulation there was an outcry from influential parties in Kosovo including the Kosovo government who stated that they would extend the suspension with pay until further notice. It is a very gracious attitude. They accepted that the KPS Serbs continued to receive money on a monthly basis but it did not work. I think I said something wrong with regard to the closing of their accounts because in the south I don't think they closed their account but they still received money from the Kosovo government but they are not working. Now we have a different situation in Belgrade with the new government, a western-oriented government it looks like. We hope that this will lead to less pressure on the KPS Serbs and that they will return to the police service or to the Kosovo Police in due time. I must say that the KP management have been very, very tolerant and very clear in stating that they need the KP Serbs and they welcome them back. There is no antagonism, there is no snickering, there are no shy smiles with regard to the wish to have the KP Serbs back into uniform and back into service. Of course this might be a professional assessment because the KP Serbs are best equipped to police in the enclaves. We are, from the international side, we are awaiting monitoring the developments on the political side because everything about policing in Kosovo is also political. We have succeeded to get salaries which were blocked when the KPS Serbs in northern Mitrovica closed their bank accounts and the money did not arrive at their accounts for technical reasons. They have accumulated three-months' pay which they have not received and we are now in dialogue with the KPS Serbs in northern Mitrovica for them to receive that money from the budget in Pri?tina. I think it is, in our micro cosmos, it is a significant step that we have this dialogue with them and it seems that it will soften a little bit the very, very strong and monolithic attitude which you sometimes meet. BOUTELLIS: But the difference of other KP Serbs in the rest of the country, the ethnic KP officers of North Mitrovica never stopped working right? FRIGAARD: No. BOUTELLIS: They're reporting to regional commanders. FRIGAARD: They have, in the north station, they're only KP, with a few exceptions they're KP Serbs and they continue their activity in Northern Mitrovica, never stopped working but at a certain stage they refused to take pay from Pri?tina and they are not respecting the chain of command from Pri?tina; they're only accepting the UNMIK chain of command. But it seems to soften. When you have a dialogue, when you have communication, you might have cooperation. BOUTELLIS: So again you're not in Kosovo for the EULEX function of course, but there is a transition now that it will take place; there's no fixed date. FRIGAARD: No. BOUTELLIS: Are there any options that are considered because this is the only regional command that remains under UNMIK control. Are there any options discussed with EULEX? FRIGAARD: No, but I think for the time being, the assessment is that EULEX should not go to the north, that might be dangerous because most of the European Union countries have recognized Kosovo as an independent state and the Serbs dislike that. They are not willing, people on the street level, they are not willing to cooperate with anyone or respect anyone who has recognized Kosovo as an independent state. This might change, but for the time being it is not advisable for EULEX to deploy in the north. I think we should let time work here and wait until we have a different political climate. As it is now, today, the theoretical framework of the future is that UNMIK will remain as the international law enforcement organization in the whole of Kosovo with EULEX as a pillar under the UNMIK umbrella. In reality this means that UNMIK will continue to be in the chain of command in the north with the KPS Serbs and in the south there will be in reality a stronger EULEX element which might, in effect, deal with the policing activity with the KPS. Again EULEX is supposed to be a monitor in this process and the KP will deal with operational police activities. BOUTELLIS: Are there innovations or experiments that you know about in the KPS, things that may be original or just particularly interesting that you think merit more attention, lessons from, whether it be specific units or a specific way of doing things that we could apply some other places? FRIGAARD: I don't know anything in particular. What they have they have adopted from the international community and the different nations who have advised here. But I'm positive, I think it is a positive element that they have a clear gender policy allowing women to come in and hopefully, in the future, have management positions. BOUTELLIS: Now the last section of the interview I'd like to turn now to the international community, particularly the UN and the way the UN police have been working here in Kosovo. If you could create a wish list, what would be maybe two or three changes in terms of UN internal management or policy that could help you do your job more effectively? FRIGAARD: I don't think I am in a position to give any advice to the management of a big mission like this. It has been in place for many years. The police side I am quite satisfied with the efficiency. The efficiency is dependent on the people who are employed here. I think my experience from the crime pillar was that people are competent and very dedicated to what they are doing. Of course you find some rotten apples everywhere. I think that the police activity has been quite good. I think with regard to the international community and the presence in Kosovo I think that to show some degree of efficiency you should concentrate on infrastructure. The UN, the international community has been here for eight or nine years and still we don't have electricity 24 hours, we don't have water 24 hours. The state of the roads is a disgrace. There is no train activity to speak of. Just to show that there are some improvements on the ground for the common man and woman, I think that infrastructure is very important. We take it for granted in my country 24 hours and water 24 hours. But I'm not the one to criticize but I pose the question why didn't you concentrate on basic infrastructure? We do have winter in this country too and it's cold. BOUTELLIS: If you could offer advice to your successors on how to work effectively with partners in the host country, you mentioned very courteous relations with your counterpart in the Kosovo Police at the senior level. Are there any particular lessons for building relationships and advising, mentoring positions? FRIGAARD: Kosovo is a small country. I'm representing a small country. I think that small country problems and small country solutions should be transferred to other small countries. Additionally coming from a small country there is no hidden agenda. I think especially in this part of the world people are skeptical to why you are here and what would you like to obtain. I hear what you're saying but why are you saying what you're saying, what do you want? That might be the handicap of the bigger nations, that people suspect them of having a hidden agenda, a geopolitical agenda. Of course there is a cultural gap between European and trans-Atlantic policing. The United States which is an important contributor to this country also with regard to police officers have a different concept of policing than what we have in Europe basically. This also creates a problem from time to time. It is difficult to avoid. We try to export the experiences and the baggage we have from home with regard to policing to they country we are visiting be it in central Asia or in Calcutta or in Kosovo. It might be a bit confusing for the recipient to meet with different police philosophies and structures. Somebody is saying one day this is the way we do it in Oslo and after six months there will be a guy who tells you this is the way we do it in Philadelphia or Chicago or Rome. To have a common standard could be practical. At least certain guidelines as to how to do it. This doesn't apply to the management level I think because management might be similar in different countries. It is more on the local level how we do things. BOUTELLIS: One last question. You started to answer this with your concern over politicization and salaries, but as the international community withdraws, as UNMIK withdraws, as the mandate of EULEX is somewhat lighter with monitoring and progressively the international community will let the Kosovo Police stand on their feet, what are the biggest challenges that the police will face in Kosovo? FRIGAARD: The biggest challenge in the future I think is to fulfill the obligation set by the European Union with regard to management and policing and security and the law enforcement sector. Eventually Kosovo like other countries in the region would like to be members of the European Union. Recently we had an example from Bulgaria where donations of magnitude were not deployed, were not sent, because Bulgaria didn't fulfill the requirements. The same goes for Romania. There has to be again discipline on the management level and on the police level if they are going to fulfill those obligations. This is not very difficult but it is common decency in policing. Unless they concentrate on making full-fledged working society, a democratic society seriously. They have to start concentrating on working hard to establish good, transparent, decent, honest institutions. I think it is a big challenge. BOUTELLIS: Do you have any final comments? FRIGAARD: No. BOUTELLIS: Thank you for your time. Institutions for Fragile States Series: Policing Oral History Program Interview number: L-4 ______________________________________________________________________ 13 Use of this transcript is governed by ISS Terms of Use, available at www.princeton.edu/successfulsocieties Use of this transcript is governed by ISS Terms of Use, available at www.princeton.edu/successfulsocieties