THE WOODROW WILSON SCHOOL OF PUBLIC AND INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS Series: Teacher Payroll Interview no.: A 8 Interviewee: Jessica Bimba, Virginia Lighe, Sudacious Varney & Veekie Wilson Interviewer: Leon Schreiber & Blaykyi Kenyah Date of Interview: 10 August 2017 Location: Liberia WILSON: I'm Veekie Wilson, a field operations supervisor [associated with the 2017 ghost worker removal and teacher vetting project in Liberia]. SCHREIBER: How long have you been with Big Win? WILSON: Nine months now. SCHREIBER: And before joining this project, what did you work on? WILSON: I normally work on many projects around the country. For instance, we had a project that we implemented before I came here. It's a community development project. The money goes to the rural communities and helps those that are in need of basics like latrines... SCHREIBER: Right. Ms. Lighe, your background? LIGHE: Thank you. I'm Mrs. Virginia Lighe. I work in the HR Department. I am the Discipline and Dismissal Officer. And I also work on the biometric team as one of those that do the vetting. SCHREIBER: Interesting. How long have you been with Big Win? LIGHE: For the past nine months, almost a year, around that. As soon as they started. SCHREIBER: So they basically recruited you when the project started. SCHREIBER: Jessica? BIMBA: I've been with the Big Win team for the past eight months. Starting in December. Before that, I was on a global partnership for education for the Bridge [Academies] in the last year. We had four components in that project, we had a desk component, we had new materials, we had school construction and school buildings. ...I'm the assistant to the assistant leading the project so most of my work has to do in administrative, clerical, and secretarial work. [Sudacious Varney joined this conversation later. Varney was the financial manager of the project implementation unit.] SCHREIBER: How were you actually recruited for this specific project? WILSON: Everybody was informed about the project on the e-website [Executive Mansion], and people applied. And of the people that applied, there were interviews conducted, and those that were qualified got accepted. And with that, after we got accepted, we began the project. And that's where we are right now. SCHREIBER: Do you have a sense for how big the team actually is for this project, how many people in total? WILSON: Yeah, what happened is that for Big Win we got a small number, the implementation team. And we work directly with the HR team, including the teacher vetting...the teacher testing team. It's two separate teams but work together. So the teacher team, which normally goes ahead of the vetting team and do the test, and then when they're leaving to go to the next then the vetting team come and starts upon a job. So that's two separate teams that work together. SCHREIBER: Right. So let's go to the big challenge here. Why is this project necessary? What are some of the problems that it is trying to address? WILSON: Unfortunately, when it comes to the Ministry of Education, it's got one of the wider payrolls, very big. You got a lot of people on the payroll, they are ghosts. Some people are just on payroll collecting money. Especially when you go to the remote part of the country, like the rural areas, you find schools [where there are teachers] ...collecting the check and sitting ...somewhere else. So the Ministry decided to recruit people to go and identify this problem so that we can solve it. So that was the time Big Win came in to try to help in that process. So Big Win goes in the field. We do the testing and the vetting. With that, you're going to identify that this person is on payroll or this person is not or this person is there collecting check or the person is not actually coming to teach. So most often, you find when we get to the counties, the school provides the personnel listing, the principal listing. In that, you will be able to identify the amount of teachers within that school. And if you identify the amount of teachers in that school and everybody cannot appear to actually go through the vetting, then you get to realize that some people are not around and some of them have abandoned the job and are sitting somewhere else and collecting the check. So with that, you'd be able to identify the lapses and try to work on it LIGHE: The essence of this program, it started with the Liberia Teacher Training Program or LTTP. LTTP trained us. ...And the essence of the process was to identify teachers that need training and also identify those that have already been trained. Secondly, to identify teachers that...maybe they die and their name is still on the payroll and other people collecting their money. And then, when we get in the field, ...we move from school to school. We call the school, the principal will do the school listing, and then he will sign, the team will also sign or approve. Then the CEO will attest that identical listing. SCHREIBER: That's the county education officer? LIGHE: Yes, the county officer, the district that we're going in, the district education officer also will approve that listing. Then those teachers will get in line. If we don't see you, we don't vet you. We make sure you come and sit in rows. And then we start the vetting process. You come with your original document and your photocopy. We look at the original to know whether it's genuine. SCHREIBER: Are we talking about a qualification now? WILSON: Yeah, qualifications. LIGHE: Yes. Your credentials, you come with the original and the photocopy. Then we look at the original and then give them back to you if they are correct. Then we take the photocopies, and then we start to key-in the information in the laptop. Then we ask you some questions, sometimes your date of birth and other things. We ask you which subject you're teaching because we found out some people are misplaced. Maybe you are a biology teacher and they gave you language arts to teach. So we try to find out... WILSON: And before this stage, we make sure that we get on the air for a month so that you can be aware that we're actually coming to your place to take the SSI. So if anywhere you are, you try to get there so that you can be able to go through the SSI. SCHREIBER: So is this through radio ads or how? WILSON: Yeah, we do it through the media....the county educational office is there so that they can be able to inform the people when you go to that area you have the media cannot reach so they go there. They go there and inform those people... WILSON: They will go there and inform you that your employer will be coming here at this time so you've got to be here. They want to make sure to identify your entire listing to see everybody in the school is present. Whether you continue there to teach. So when we cannot find you, I said we spend a month in the county. So with that time... SCHREIBER: Yeah. So the strategy is to physically visit each and every school in Liberia. LIGHE: Yes. SCHREIBER: And you say that the list of people who work for them, that's the first step. You need to get the list approved both by the school and by the county office as well? LIGHE: Yes. KENYAH: And the district office, too. LIGHE: Yeah, district officer. SCHREIBER: So they will have records of teachers that they know are supposed to be at that school. The school has records, and then you sort of match this up. SCHREIBER: But I guess part of the problem is that they don't always have complete information, right? [...]The county office. LIGHE: They should have complete information. They always have complete information because if your teachers go in the school and sign in the record book, most of the time we ask for the attendance book also. WILSON: On a daily basis. LIGHE: They sign on a daily basis. SCHREIBER: That's a requirement for every school? LIGHE: Yes. So those that can't sign, you would not have any record for them. That means they are not in your school. SCHREIBER: Okay. So principal, DEO, and then CEO? LIGHE: Yes. KENYAH: So during your vetting, did you have situations where the principal's list had a different set of teachers from the DEO's list or the CEO's list? WILSON: No, the DEO... WILSON: ...for the principal. The principal provides his teacher list in person to the DEO because he's got to take it to the DEO for the DEO to verify, to make sure that all of the teachers he put there are actually teachers that are teaching in the school. But if the DEO doesn't approve that list, then probably he has some lapses somewhere that he's not satisfied with. So he makes sure that he goes through it, because he, the DEO, assigns teachers to the various schools he controls in his area, that's the district that he controls. If you've got, for instance Grand Kru, then you've got Barclayville is a district. Within that district, they've got a DEO placed there. He's responsible for all the schools within that district. So he makes sure he visits the schools on a regular basis. He talks to most of the teachers, the principals, and he knows them in person. And he normally transfers teachers from one school to the next... LIGHE: And he must certify himself for the attendance listing......people use on the daily basis. Most of the time, before they sign the listing of any principal, you bring your attendance listing. SCHREIBER: I see. So in essence, the first step doesn't involve Big Win. It involves the principals and those officers making sure that their records match. That's the first step. And only then, once that's been signed, do you really enter the picture. Is that right? LIGHE: Yes. WILSON: The purpose of the exercise is to identify ghosts that are on the payroll and to remove the ghosts off the payroll, to have a clean payroll system so that at least everybody that's collecting their check, they should work to earn the money. SCHREIBER: So I want to ask you about the check collection. How does it actually work in Liberia? Where do you collect that check? If I'm a teacher, where do I get that check from? LIGHE: Finance Ministry, SCHREIBER: Is it still a paper check that we're talking about, or is it directly deposited into their... WILSON: Direct deposit into their accounts. KENYAH: If I'm getting what you're saying clearly, the Education Ministry is not in charge of paying teachers. It's the Finance Ministry. LIGHE: It's the Finance Ministry that's in charge of paying teachers. SCHREIBER: Okay. Let me ask you, before this project began, how did the process work? If I'm a new teacher at a school in Grand Kru and I say okay, I've been appointed here, how would my name get on the list at the Finance Department? LIGHE: First of all, the DEO will do a letter for you, and the CEO will approve it. You send it to our department. WILSON: Which is the HR Office. LIGHE: We are in charge of the HR Department. SCHREIBER: In the Education Ministry? WILSON: Yes. LIGHE: Yes. Then we process it, attach your letters and everything, and then our process and ministers sign. Then we send it to the Civil Service Agency (CSA)... LIGHE: ...Civil Service Agency. They do the processing of the check, and they process your name on the payroll. Then they forward it to Finance Ministry. Then Finance Ministry prints the check for you. SCHREIBER: Okay. So you said the actual payroll is in the Civil Service Agency? LIGHE: Yes. WILSON: Education works with CSA and Finance so to get all of these things accomplished, the three ministries have to really work together to get the project successful. SCHREIBER: So teachers are considered civil servants? WILSON: Yes. They are civil servants. SCHREIBER: So let me ask you about that coordination between the Education Ministry, CSA, and Finance. At the beginning of this process, was there a concerted effort to get all those people to say we agree with this project? How did you get the buy-in from those other ministries? WILSON: We've got a CSA representative person on the team. The only representative we don't have in the field is Finance. SCHREIBER: Why is that? WILSON: Sometimes when it comes to error, it's [out of the ordinary] we have series of meetings with Finance. KENYAH: When you're going on the field, who goes to each school, one person from the Civil Service Agency? LIGHE: So team, you do have one person from the CSA that goes there. WILSON: And you got the teacher education representative, who is from the Ministry of Education. And you've got the HR team. SCHREIBER: So one official from CSA, one from the Education Ministry. WILSON: No. [,..] Education Ministry got majority of the people. SCHREIBER: Okay. WILSON: Yeah, from the HR Department. And the teacher education team. SCHREIBER: Oh, teacher education for the testing, right. Okay. So mostly HR... WILSON: They send five or four. LIGHE: Because they do the testing. WILSON: Yeah. So you've got our people monitoring the test. Yeah, a lot of things go on in the field. So they always send five people to go in the field. SCHREIBER: Okay. So roughly how many in total? WILSON: The total, sometimes we got about ten, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, sometimes 17 people go, 17 or 18. SCHREIBER: Okay. Just want to go back to the Finance. So is it that the Finance Ministry, you didn't get enough money to support from them? Or is it just they don't have the resources to go to the field? What is the issue there? WILSON: Each time you talk to them, they say they're going to come, they're going to come, and they make no effort in coming. We met with them I think two, three times, in the building. And they pledge that they're going to give the support, but since then, we are not getting more from them like we expect. KENYAH: Just a follow up on that question, so the Finance Ministry not coming on the team, would you say it's affected your activities in the... LIGHE: Not at all. WILSON: No, no, no, no, no. It didn't affect us. SCHREIBER: Right. They come at the very end of the process. LIGHE: We recommend to them whatever we get from the field because actually, when we go in the field and after each county, we make sure that the names we collect from the field match up with the payroll. And those that did not attend the biometric process at all, we cross out in the rolls. So when we sort the names out, we send it over to the Finance Ministry... LIGHE: ...and tell them, delete these names because they are ghosts. SCHREIBER: So the key partner is actually the CSA... WILSON: Yes. KENYAH: So just to hone in on that question, the exact role...the role of HR is very clear. From the way you describe it, teachers bring letters to you, and you compile the list and send to the CSA. So if the Finance Ministry wasn't very necessary in the process, how was the CSA very necessary in the process? And what would they provide? And were they providing human resources, support? What exactly did the CSA give in the field that HR couldn't do so you needed someone from CSA? Or was it just representation? LIGHE: Mainly CSA is there to see how the process is moving on, what are we actually doing in the field, how we're vetting the teachers, how we're getting them to do the job, to vet them, and all the things, and how the testing team is going on. So they are there to really observe what we are doing in the field. KENYAH: Oh, so they didn't actually participate? So they were watching? LIGHE: Yes. LIGHE: ...how many teachers we have vetted for that day, how many teachers we issued ID cards because some teachers we don't issue them ID cards. Maybe we find out you don't have document. We don't issue you ID card. After the war, they hired some people that came onboard when people were all scattered and there were no teachers. So when we go to vet them, sometimes you find some of those people that will tell you my document lost. My document is lost. So those people we put in a category for training. WILSON: We recommend them for training. LIGHE: Recommend them for training because there's nothing to prove that you had document. SCHREIBER: Yeah, qualifications. WILSON: Yeah, you need your qualification. LIGHE: So we recommend you for training. And when we recommend you for training, we don't give you an ID card. BIMBA: Biometric. LIGHE: We don't give you biometric. SCHREIBER: Why not? WILSON: As we vet you, when you qualify with all your documents... WILSON: ...we issue your ID card immediately. SCHREIBER: On the spot then. WILSON: On the spot, yeah. WILSON: ...biometric ID card right there. We give you a biometric ID card. LIGHE: After you leave the vetting table, the next table you go to the biometric ID card. SCHREIBER: This is impressive. Actually, we should just slow down because I have so many questions on that. Let me just quickly check. The CSA, the records that they are keeping, is that only for their internal use, or is it a monitoring exercise where you will then sit together and check if your record says there were 50 teachers today and theirs says there's 52? Does that happen? Or is it more for their internal records? LIGHE: They also monitor because if we vet 50 people, the data sets should have 50 people. If we give 20 people ID cards, they should have that same. If we send 20 people for training... KENYAH: So sort of like a balance and check. WILSON: You have a complete check and balance system with that. SCHREIBER: So do you compare these records at the end of every day? LIGHE: Yes. SCHREIBER: So you would sit in a room or with a desk and say listen, this one person here that's missing or...can there be mistakes? That's basically the question. LIGHE: Sometimes. For instance, the vetting team would be in the room. The ID card is in the next room. Then the CSA people and those are...the person has to sign for the ID card. SCHREIBER: Oh, the CSA has to sign for the ID card? LIGHE: No, I mean, the teachers have to sign for the ID card. LIGHE: So in that process, the CSA person is right there. They make sure that the person signs and takes delivery of the ID card. Then through that data set, they... KENYAH: So that is why the CSA takes their record. The CSA takes a record when you take your biometric ID card. LIGHE: Yes. Yes. SCHREIBER: Only for the biometric? So their records... LIGHE: They also go to the vetting area because sometimes they come to us, and when we are looking at the document, they decide to come and look at the document also and make sure that yes, that person's document are correct. SCHREIBER: Okay. So they have kind of an oversight monitoring role in the whole process. WILSON: Yeah. SCHREIBER: Just to be clear, the HR Office is not under the CSA. Is it under the CSA? What relationship does this Minister of Education have with the Civil Service Agency? LIGHE: Civil Service Agency is our direct employer... BIMBA: For the whole country, for all civil servants. LIGHE: For the entire country. They are direct employer. SCHREIBER: I see. So you also get your salary from the Civil Service Agency? LIGHE: Yes. KENYAH: Okay. And so the HR Department over here, is there...I guess my question is, is the HR Department of the Ministry of Education under the CSA? LIGHE: We're under the Ministry of Education. SCHREIBER: Yeah, so you report to the Minister. LIGHE: But then we work with CSA. SCHREIBER: So even for your own employees in the Ministry, you would send information to the CSA for the payroll. LIGHE: We recommend. We prepare the documents and send it over to CSA, yes, the person's qualified. Even though they themselves will go through the documents, too. If you send the people's credential, they go through it, too. SCHREIBER: Okay. So let's go back to the process in the field. So we've covered. So we covered the lists compiled by the teachers, by the schools. Then people must stand in a row, you basically said. LIGHE: Yeah, sometimes we put chairs. People line up... LIGHE: The principal comes first. SCHREIBER: The principal sits in front. LIGHE: Yeah, we vet him. WILSON: All his teachers right there in a direct line. LIGHE: We look at the listing and correct his name and tell him to bring all his credentials, the originals, and we go through it. And when they are correct, we take it and we give it back to him. And then we take the photocopy from him, and then we process his name in the computer. Then we also have a form that we can fill in for them. Then we give you that form. They have two or three forms in a file. Only in that file the biometric team will see with you. That file, they will take from you before they can do your ID card. SCHREIBER: So that principal would have to physically carry their own file to the biometric... LIGHE: Carry their own file to the biometric team. SCHREIBER: Every teacher. LIGHE: If you don't have a file, those that are going for training, we don't give them the file. When we fill it in, we keep it. We fill it in and we keep it because you are not going for ID card. Only those teachers that are going for ID card are qualified for the ID card will go for the ID card. And secondly, we also give the pension people an ID card. For the older people, we have a plain ID card, not really biometric ID card. We just give them something to identify that this person is going for pension. So older people, we just give them some plain ID card. SCHREIBER: But that's for a different purpose. That's for them to get pension. LIGHE: Just for pension. And then we do the listing different. They are just for pension. SCHREIBER: Roughly how many pensioners, as a percentage, amongst these teachers is it, five percent, ten percent? Roughly how many people qualify for pension? What is the age for pension in Liberia? LIGHE: Sixty. SCHREIBER: So just very broadly, how many teachers above 60 would you say? LIGHE: Many. In all the counties, many. Almost ten percent of the teachers. SCHREIBER: Ten percent. LIGHE: Grand Kru, we have huge number of pensioners. WILSON: And in River Gee. LIGHE: Yes, a huge number in the southeast. The pension process is very slow. They don't pension the people very soon. For me, I've got my father. He's been working in Grand Gedeh. He's now worked for more than 35 years, and he said 85 up to 90 have not pensioned him. SCHREIBER: And this is a state pension? It comes from the government? LIGHE: Yeah, it comes from the CCSA. They allocate money for pension. They... WILSON: So the Ministry recommends to CSA, then CSA takes it further. SCHREIBER: I see. Okay. That's a very important component of this as well. Roughly how much is the pension that they would get? LIGHE: For the pension, most of the time they just give them a handshake. If you work for 35 years they are going to give you $700.00 US. And if you work for 40 plus, they give you $1,000.00 US. LIGHE: Just for handshake. SCHREIBER: ...is a one-time payment or... LIGHE: They just give you a check one time. Then you have some other benefit, depending on how long you work, from the social security. You got benefit sometimes. You continue to receive some of your pay until otherwise... KENYAH: Yeah, I was going to ask that. Generally, in most countries, pension is handled by the social security office, whichever office it is. And so when your team is dealing with pensions, the CSA deals with pensions, do you mean that the CSA has a structured pension which is like what social securities do? Or do you mean when people are recommended for pension they are given a package and then that's just done? So does the CSA give packages, or is it a structured pension that the CSA does? LIGHE: CSA is the one that arranges the handshake package. Then they will recommend a pensioner to social security. KENYAH: Okay. That makes sense. WILSON: Social security. SCHREIBER: So a very basic question that comes to mind is how do you verify the age? Because I assume many people don't have ID cards because you're issuing them with ID cards now for the first time, in many cases, right? So how would you check the age and potentially even the identities? LIGHE: Most of the time we use the voting ID card that we get in this country. We use the voting ID card. WILSON: Because the voting ID card carries a regular... WILSON: ...register for vote, you've got to give your age that you're going to use. KENYAH: Did you have any cases where teachers didn't have any form of identification, like a voter's ID? Maybe they didn't vote in the last elections or they didn't have birth certificates, nothing? Did you ever have a case where you sent to a school and there were teachers there who had nothing? LIGHE: Yes. We had a lot of cases like that. And then if you qualify for the ID card, we do not give it to you until you can bring some identity. WILSON: They've got a few things that we recommend that you bring to the SSI, your voting ID card, your birth certificate, your passport, driver's license, social security ID card. LIGHE: One of them. WILSON: You come with one. So you bring one to the SSI that we will be able to identify your....your particular that we need. So probably might be we need your age, your date of birth, the basics. We put that into a complete system. We've got a database setup for that. SCHREIBER: So most people would have one of them. LIGHE: Yes. ...voting ID card. SCHREIBER: That's the most... WILSON: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you can't live in the country without any of these things....you need some identification. You have a passport, something you've got to get. LIGHE: [Sometime people use another person's name and they want to continue using that person's name.]... SCHREIBER: This is from the war still? LIGHE: Yeah. SCHREIBER: The people have different identities. LIGHE: Yeah, when they put you in as teacher, but then because the person died, you have been using their name and you don't want to process your own name. WILSON: Maybe I travel or something happened to me, and then you come in. Maybe the DEO recommend that you come in. They will give you that name so you can be using it until they can process your regular name on the payroll. LIGHE: Some don't want to process... WILSON: So when they start using that name and are doing it, they forget to process their own name on the payroll. KENYAH: What you said was that sometimes the DEOs also will say the process is slow and so use this other person's name and we'll start processing yours. That happened? LIGHE: Yes. And sometimes they do a teacher ID card for that person, and that person will be receiving a check with that ID card. And then he will forget altogether to process his own name. So now for five years, he's using that identical name. Then when we go for the process, he forgot that when he went to go register for the....actual name, their own name. SCHREIBER: Right. But why? WILSON: Under the payroll the name is different from all of his information. So he gets a particular ID card for that name that he is going to receive the check on. SCHREIBER: Yes, even though that is not his name? WILSON: So we identify the problem. We got a way to solve that. Because we've got complete database setup that we put in all of your information. WILSON: We got everything on record and we scan everything into a complete system. So if I want to find you now, I go there and plug Peter Paul, whoever, all the information will come up. Your payroll number, everything. So we identify all of these problems. LIGHE: Once you know that name is not your own name, you can't do biometric in that name. SCHREIBER: But the way you check that is to say if my name is John Peter on the system but then I show up and all my other IDs show a different name, is that how you identify there's a mistake here? LIGHE: Yes. It's not you. KENYAH: So what other ways? Can you tell us the exact ways you identify these? You said there are lots of ways that you identify. WILSON: Yeah. Some people, for instance, say: "I went to school. I got all of my documents in my regular name. Everything. But then my ID that I only use to go and collect my check, is in a different name." ...So you've got to bring all of your credentials to the vetting team. And then we scan the document to make sure the document is correct. If you got a bachelor's diploma (Bsc) document, we go through it, because some people bring fake documents to the process. WILSON: Yeah, we've got a lot of fake documents right now. ...When we identify the problem, we automatically reject you from the process and we recommend you for training because it means you're using somebody else's document. So we recommend you for training, say that you have a fake document LIGHE: And they themselves can confess. WILSON: ...So when we identify a fake document, we seize it because we don't want people to use it somewhere else. We take it for ourselves. Then we recommend you for training. In that case, you would go and try to get some document. So most of the time, we talk to you. We encourage you to go...they got community colleges in the rural counties. And they got a teacher training institute, most of them are in the counties. So talk to you that you go there to be able to get, you spend a year or two, you've got to have your document. KENYAH: So you don't penalize them? There is no punishment? WILSON: The punishment is you're not getting your salary anymore. SCHREIBER: Yeah, that's big punishment. WILSON: You're forced to go and get your document. BIMBA: ...experiences they had in the field, we will have a regular meeting when you go out there in the interior part of the country. To deal with people, you have to be very careful. SCHREIBER: Because it's dangerous? BIMBA: Yes, you have to recommend them for the training. That's the only way you can... BIMBA: ...you could get yourself killed. We just have to tell them, oh, we'll take the document but we encourage you to go back to school... SCHREIBER: If you said you will be fired... WILSON: No, you can't do that. SCHREIBER: ...then your life is in danger? LIGHE: Yes. WILSON: Because you are in the rural... LIGHE: ...that they're depending on. SCHREIBER: It's the only income. LIGHE: Yeah, the income they're depending on. So what you do, you encourage them. Oh, we want your people to be trained. SCHREIBER: So during the training, will they be receiving salaries? LIGHE: Sometimes we talk to them. We have orientation with them before we start the process. We talk to them and say if you have anything that isn't correct, for instance your document not correct, don't fool yourself. Please agree to go through the training so that you will have qualified documents. So most of them can agree and they will come and say I don't have documents so I want to go through the training. Some can come up voluntarily and tell us that they want to go through training. SCHREIBER: But you have to be very sensitive in how you work with these people, that's the point. LIGHE: Yes. Yes, yes. SCHREIBER: So you said that if you say we recommend that you go for training, do you lose your income? LIGHE: No. SCHREIBER: So you continue to be a teacher? LIGHE: Yes. WILSON: You're still teaching. SCHREIBER: Do you get a lower income than you did before? LIGHE: No. It remains the same because we compile the documents and bring it to the Ministry for decision. WILSON: So we go identify the problem out there. Then we come and make the recommendation. The XYZ person need training. They don't have the qualified credential to actually be there. Then they're going to take the action now to be able to replace this person or do whatever. SCHREIBER: They is now the Ministry. LIGHE: They identify training. KENYAH: So basically, does anyone lose their job apart from the people who don't exist? WILSON: We made the announcement ahead of time when we go into the county, if you don't show up, it means that you're a ghost. LIGHE: You lose your job. You will lose your job. SCHREIBER: Even if you exist but if you're not there, you are a ghost. LIGHE: Yes. WILSON: So if you got a problem, you're sick or whatever, you report it to your DEO or CEO. Then we get the team informed that this person is not well via written communication. VARNEY: So addressing your question, as it relates to whether anybody gets fired apart from who don't exist, from my understanding is that the project is in phases. There are stages, right. The current exercise is meant to identify who is on the payroll and who doesn't exist. So the next phase or the potential decision making will be removing unqualified teachers. But the exercise of cleaning the ghosts has to come into full first, removing everybody. Then from my understanding, there will be maybe opportunity to analyze all the data, the reasons why the test is being given as a component. So thereafter, the decision will be made about qualified, unqualified. But you cannot do everything simultaneously. SCHREIBER: But at least for those people who have now said okay, we don't have documents, they are not immediately scared that they're going to lose their job? For the moment they continue to receive... VARNEY: They are immediately afraid. ...They don't have documents. They are living in fear. They are not registered in the system. So when the exercise is completed and there is a one-payroll system, their names won't appear... So you need to convince people to complete the exercise, because there's a negotiation we'll be able to have... SCHREIBER: So that's why they have a window now to go for training, ... WILSON: Yeah, you've got to do that soon because if you don't do that... KENYAH: Just to get the timeline right, right now you go into the towns, into the communities. You merge systems to create one payroll, but you are not using that payroll to give out salaries right now. WILSON: No. KENYAH: The old system is still in place. And the ghosts are still receiving money for the... SCHREIBER: The ghosts are off. LIGHE: Once we finish with the county and sort the payroll there are no ghosts. SCHREIBER: So if you had a list of ten names, you come back and maybe two were ghosts so they immediately go off. But there could be another three people on that list who are actually not qualified. They will continue to receive their salary until a decision is taken as to whether they will be... Okay. So the other question that we haven't asked yet is about the actual test to determine competence. So it seems like you can present your credentials as one way to prove that you are trained. But why do you also then have the test? How do the two actually link? And is everyone tested? LIGHE: All the teachers, yes, are tested. The reason is that we want to identify those that trained and those that are not trained. Those that can be trained, those that are trainable, that you can train, because they've got some people that are not trainable. SCHREIBER: Define the untrainable. LIGHE: Some are not even high school graduates. They are people who wrote in other people's names to get in the system. SCHREIBER: But they still come to school? LIGHE: Yeah, but when they take the test, sometimes you find out that a person can't even make a score of ten percent. Can you train that kind of person? VARNEY: Another component is that you want to identify potential people who will be removed to pension. There are some people who might have the credentials, but are old enough to qualify for pension, can't see, are disabled LIGHE: So we pension then. VARNEY: ...or else they will keep receiving a salary. SCHREIBER: So you actually want to get all of the pensioners off the payroll? VARNEY: Yes KENYAH: How does that affect the capacity of the teaching staff? ...I guess part of the answer would be interesting to know what percentage of the pensioners were qualified teachers, ... LIGHE: What happens is that we start recruitment of qualified teachers. VARNEY: There are people who are qualified who graduated from..the teaching institute, from what I understand, ..So after you make a space, ..[We ask, can we add more teachers within the ceiling?] Is there a need for teachers? SCHREIBER: But is that also a decision that hasn't been taken yet? So the pensioners specifically, if I go now today and find out that I'm a pensioner, do I immediately lose my job? VARNEY: The decision is not made in the field. The decision is made by the higher-ups. SCHREIBER: And that has not been done yet? WILSON: No, not yet. The pension is not yet. It takes time. Sometimes it takes a year or two before it actually takes effect for the pension. LIGHE: We do the listing, send it over to CSA. Then CSA discusses with Finance to get the money before they can do the pension. SCHREIBER: So until they have... LIGHE: They have to also get to social security and see how they can put the packages and the whole thing together before the program can take effect. SCHREIBER: So have any pensioners actually received money already or is it still something that's being negotiated? LIGHE: Some pensioners received money. SCHREIBER: So if you get that money, do you agree to stop teaching? LIGHE: Yeah, you are off. Well, they have a pensioner payroll where you get half of your salary every month. The pensioner payroll is where they transfer and take you off our regular payroll. SCHREIBER: For how long do you keep getting that? LIGHE: As long as you live. SCHREIBER: So people on the pensioner payroll still teach? LIGHE: No. They retire. SCHREIBER: Okay. I mean, you save money because you basically pay them half of what they earned before. So if two pensioners retire, you have space for one new teacher basically, based on the savings. Okay. So just on the test, again, everyone takes the test even if they have the credentials. LIGHE: Volunteers and all. Most are on the payroll and also some volunteers. Volunteers come and take it to try to get on. The SSI is to be able to identify availability, qualification, training needs, and requirements. VARNEY: There are three sets of teachers in the classroom. Those who are regular. There are some people who came as supplementary. Some people are volunteering because they are not on the payroll. So they are volunteering, maybe hired by the community because of need. ...There's a need for math teachers. And somebody in that environment who is able to teach math so he comes and volunteers to teach. He's not on the payroll. KENYAH: Who are the supplementary teachers? VARNEY: Supplementary, this was a special payroll created by one of those international partners to be able to accommodate need when there was need because they were paying them some amount. That payroll has not been integrated to the regular payroll. SCHREIBER: The supplementary teachers, was that after the war or was it... LIGHE: Yes, after the war. VARNEY: My point is you've got to allow them to take the test. Because obviously if you have volunteers who are already volunteering in the classroom and if you have the training need or are able to replace people, who will you take first? SCHREIBER: The volunteers. LIGHE: You will take the volunteer, yeah. VARNEY: The volunteer, yeah. So you have to [indecipherable] so you've got to allow them to take the test. SCHREIBER: I understand. You say allow them to take the test. But if I'm a qualified teacher and I'm on the regular payroll, I have my credentials, do I still need to take that test? WILSON: Yes. SCHREIBER: Okay. So volunteers, regular, supplementary, everyone needs to take it? BIMBA: It's a new process. VARNEY: ...Capacity building is a continuous thing. So you cannot just say because I'm trained ten years ago, I'm still trained. KENYAH: So now you have four sets of people basically in this matrix. You have people who are qualified and pass the test. They are fine. The other people who are qualified and did not pass the test, what happens to them? VARNEY: That decision is made by higher ups, yes. SCHREIBER: But you have identified those people. VARNEY: Yeah, you identify them from the test result. But again, you're from the British system where a single test is not sufficient enough to remove somebody. So you need to do another exercise, maybe train and then take another test. Maybe. That's why I said maybe. KENYAH: But that decision hasn't been made. So are they still teaching? So those people who are qualified but don't pass the test, they are still teaching? SCHREIBER: So there's no pass and fail? WILSON: For now. SCHREIBER: But is there like you need to get 50 percent to pass? VARNEY: That has to be set by higher ups to know what is qualified. SCHREIBER: And it hasn't yet? VARNEY: Like you're from the UK so 50 is a pass, right? Or should the passing score be 60? Higher ups have to make that decision. SCHREIBER: And for those who pass the test but didn't have the credentials... VARNEY: Decisions are still being made from up there, not from our end. It's not in our purview. SCHREIBER: In many ways it's a data gathering exercise to really get a complete pictures of what is going on. So the only real category that has been affected is the ghosts? VARNEY: Yes. SCHREIBER: They are the ones that immediately were taken off. For the rest of the people, you have a lot of information, but now the next phase is to decide what to actually do with it. VARNEY: It's a real, complete data gathering process to be able to make an informed judgment. SCHREIBER: So the content of the test is another important decision. So how did you decide what is in those tests, and who decided that? LIGHE: They had the testing team that decided what's in the test. WILSON: But it is a functional literacy test. SCHREIBER: So the test, then, is math and English only? BIMBA: Yeah. WILSON: Math and English, yeah. KENYAH: So if you are a science teacher, it's still just math and English? WILSON: Yes, unfortunately... KENYAH: And so I'm guessing the school system, the grade level that you are dealing with is from first grade to...is it primary school or primary and secondary? SCHREIBER: Do all teachers take the same test? LIGHE: Yes. WILSON: All teachers take the same test. SCHREIBER: I'm just thinking, you may've mentioned it already, but if I am credentialed and I lost my document, I don't get my ID. Is that right? WILSON: No. SCHREIBER: Now I go. I say I have this qualification but I have no proof. Then you say okay, no ID but I go and write the test. Maybe I'm very good in the test. Would I be safe? Because you don't want to punish someone who lost a document even if they are qualified, right? LIGHE: From the test result you might be safe. WILSON: Because during the war, many people lost their document. SCHREIBER: Exactly. LIGHE: So from the test result you see that the person is trainable and you know you can train this person. WILSON: If you can't come up with any document you go and take the test first. You come to the vetting table and explain your problem. So the next thing that we're going to do to talk to you, encourage you to go to the school. If you graduated from the school, they will actually give you...if you need your document you also go there. They will be able to give you attestation so that you can inform the vetting team that actually you went to this school. You got the qualification from there. So in that case, we'll be aware that you actually went through the school. We can process you with that. KENYAH: All the schools, you are sure they all have records dating back 20, 30, 50 years? WILSON: Yeah. All the schools have it. Yeah, they've got it. All the schools got the records. LIGHE: Most especially the TTIs, Teacher Training Institutes. WILSON: We got a record, yeah. KENYAH: I'm wondering now at this particular moment, what is the use of the ID? WILSON: Your ID automatically recognizes that you work for Ministry of Education and you're a civil servant. So you can go to the bank with your ID, collect your salary. You can go places and use your ID. And probably in the near future maybe you will have the other system setup because the ID enrolls all of your information. That's a complete biometric ID card. So when you plug it in, it will give you all of your, everything will come out. So the ID is very important. So with that ID, you've got a complete tracking system within the Ministry. So we can be able to identify you, whether you're actually a teacher. SCHREIBER: Is this ID specifically for civil servants or for the entire country? WILSON: For teachers. SCHREIBER: Just for teachers. So teachers only have a specific kind of ID? WILSON: Even the Ministry workers got it, the MOE. SCHREIBER: So the MOE has its own kind of ID system? LIGHE: Yes. KENYAH: I think in 2012 there was a civil service agency payroll cleanout, too. SCHREIBER: But that's all separate? LIGHE: Yes. SCHREIBER: It's not part of your...you have your own ID system. I think that's the key. WILSON: We have a very good system. SCHREIBER: Tell us about that. I think it's amazing that you can issue that biometric ID in the field. WILSON: If I'm a teacher. I come. I bring all of my documents. I finish vetting and everything. You issue me that ID. That ID can be used for so many things. You can use it to identify yourself both in school and out of school. You can use it, for instance, you got a system set up where you can be able to know all of your information. Everything will come out of it. And we got a complete system setup up here, and we have a system setup here where with that we can identify everybody that we issued an ID card. SCHREIBER: So it's very secure. WILSON: Yeah, it's secure. It's a very good ID card. It's got a chip on it that enrolls all of your information. It's got a chip. SCHREIBER: But how do you actually get it to people if you're in these rural areas? Do you need internet? Do you need electricity? How do you actually get it in each and every school that you visit? WILSON: Right now we don't have it there. SCHREIBER: You don't have it there? WILSON: No. As time goes by, maybe looking at the near future, these we're going to work on to be able to actually as a teacher go and enroll your biometric on a daily basis. What happened in the Ministry, we come. They know all of that, they log in over here. They get all of the...you log in and you log out. SCHREIBER: Yes, to show that you are here. WILSON: So that would have to come...because one thing that we started working on is the smart check. We don't have to and check your book, your record book, so we just go to the biometric system and check it to know that you actually did come in on a regular basis so that nobody comes and lies for you or writes your name down. LIGHE: Because you're using fingerprints. WILSON: Yeah, so the fingerprint you come and clock in. You touch your thumb and then it tells you that you're registered for the day. SCHREIBER: You have that here? WILSON: Yeah, we have it right in the building. So if you go out in the evening, you log out again. Actually, if the team goes in the field to check the record, they go straight to the system and check it. SCHREIBER: Right. Much easier. But that's not yet happening? WILSON: Not yet. SCHREIBER: But my curiosity is about actually issuing the cards. So when you go to visit a school in a rural area, how do you actually...where do you get the electricity or the internet or whatever you need to actually... BIMBA: We have a generator. We got a modem. WILSON: Complete system. BIMBA: ...in the field. SCHREIBER: Data analysts? WILSON: Yeah, everything in the field. We've got a generator. We've got it running on a daily basis. It supplies current. We got internet modem there to go through the system, update the system, on a regular basis. SCHREIBER: Okay. Is this internet with a SIM card 3G or... BIMBA: 4G. SCHREIBER: And do you have enough coverage always? WILSON: Yeah, most of them got coverage. SCHREIBER: Most of them. Okay. How long does it take to do a school? WILSON: To do one school? Sometimes...depends the amount...some schools got 30 teachers. Sometimes a school has ten teachers. Some school got two teachers. So it depends the number of teacher that comes to the table the time you're going to spend there. Sometimes depending how fast the biometric team performs, sometimes two, three minutes, five, six, seven, eight minutes because you got to log in the system. But for the biometric table now, you come. You provide your document. If it's okay, he plugs in your information in the system. He sends you to the next area. If you qualify now, you've got to go back, take your ID. From there you got to go to the next table. So it's a process. It's not just you come to me, you leave. No. You come to this man. He deals with you. You move to the next person. He deals with you. You go to the next person until you go through the entire exercise. Then when you leave all the qualification, you provide your ID card. You go immediately right to the door and go to the CSA representative. SCHREIBER: At the end of the process. WILSON: Yeah. SCHREIBER: So that information that you capture on the...I guess it's a laptop in the field, right? WILSON: Yeah. SCHREIBER: When you print the ID card, is that information automatically sent to a central server here? WILSON: Yeah. SCHREIBER: So you have a physical server here? WILSON: Yes. Yeah, we got that. SCHREIBER: Okay. So that's where it's being stored. WILSON: Yeah. LIGHE: What happened is that we have a complete database there. When they scan the document, scan the document of each teacher. LIGHE: ...your biometric ID card to it and then have the complete record here. SCHREIBER: I see. WILSON: This is a teacher team leader speaking to the teachers explaining the process before we can start. SCHREIBER: I see. Is this someone from Big Win or is this... WILSON: She's from the teacher education. She's the team lead. So she explains the process to the teacher how the test goes, a big day, no fear, XYZ and from there they'll be placed into the...she does the registration for everybody. And then they'll be placed into the various classrooms for the test. SCHREIBER: A bunch of teachers. So teachers from around other schools all come to the same... WILSON: Everybody, yeah, we got one center. You've got to go to the school, it's going to take very long time. SCHREIBER: Oh, I thought you went to each and every school. WILSON: No. So we come to the particular center. LIGHE: We have a center in a district. WILSON: So we go district by district within the county so those people... SCHREIBER: So one place in each district? WILSON: Yes. WILSON: ...biometric table, a few people working. SCHREIBER: And during that times you're doing the training, teachers were gathering at the school, right? So that will be a holiday for the children at the school? WILSON: Yes. One or two days so we don't keep it long. One day the children will be out of school so we normally do that a day. We get you back to campus so the next day you start the process, you start work. KENYAH: So how many days would you say it takes roughly? I mean, of course a district is very in terms of teachers, but average how many days would you say it takes to do a district? WILSON: A district? Sometimes we spend a week there. LIGHE: About a week. WILSON: Depends on the number of schools within the district. Sometimes we spend two weeks. Sometimes we spend a week. We went to Harper. It's a very big area where they got a lot of schools. So we spent a week and some days so that was very long for us. SCHREIBER: But the teachers have to travel by themselves to this central place? They have to pay for their own transport? WILSON: Yeah, they've got to pay for their own transport. SCHREIBER: So generally, it's accessible, it's not that far that you have to travel? LIGHE: No, accessible. KENYAH: Okay. And the testing happens after the vetting or before the vetting? WILSON: The testing happens... LIGHE: The testing is before the vetting. WILSON: The testing takes place first. The testing team comes today, do the registration. There will be a registration done for each school. Teachers come. They give you a number, assigned number, that you're going to use to enter the hall to take the test. ...You register your name, your information, and your number. ...And you come the next day and take the test after you show your ID and number. SCHREIBER: Oh, that's a good point. So you have to show ID on both days, when you register and when you come for the test? LIGHE: Yes. SCHREIBER: Okay. And then when the test is done, on the same day you do the vetting? LIGHE: Yeah, we start on the same day. SCHREIBER: And also the biometrics also on the same day? LIGHE: Yes, we do the vetting and the biometrics on the same day. SCHREIBER: Okay. All right. WILSON: For example, take Maryland County. So we get categories of people that we capture within the field. You got people with no document, people with pensions. You got regulars. WILSON: Yeah, so with this category, we capture every information for everybody in different functions. So the entire information is scanned into the system and captured. ...So any other information I need, I can get it. SCHREIBER: Okay. It's all PDF. WILSON: All of their information, yeah. So in any case, it's very easy to be able to identify the problem. SCHREIBER: Right. And all of this tons of information that you've collected, it's all stored here on this server in this building? BIMBA: The IT section. SCHREIBER: Oh, the IT section. Okay. Right. So this data is being added and added on, and then once all counties are finished, then it will be this next phase that's been discussed. Okay. Now we have all the information we need. What are some of the decisions we need to make? That'll be the next step. Great. Blay, any final questions? KENYAH: How did the teachers respond when you go to the counties? I noticed you involved the hierarchy of the teachers. There was the CEO, the DEO... WILSON: First we send the information [indecipherable] out to the various schools to the teachers. So you send that information two, three weeks ahead. Then they will be able to move to the schools, inform all of the teachers, and the principals. SCHREIBER: This is now the CEOs and the DEOs? WILSON: The DEO. We send the information to the CEO. Then he sends all the information to the various DEOs within the district. So they will now go inform the principals within their district, inform them that the SSI is going to be taking place soon. So at this date, you've got to be at this center. So you're aware that you're supposed to go to this center maybe tomorrow. And with that, you already prepared. So they tell you all of what you need to bring to the exercise. So you come with everything to the SSIs. So you've been informed ahead of time. So we inform you ahead of time so you can't have a problem. LIGHE: Most of the time, we use the testing as prerequisite to the biometric because you have some people try to run away from the testing. SCHREIBER: So that's why the testing comes first? LIGHE: We use that as prerequisite so you have to have the number from the testing. If you come to us, we ask you your testing number is what. You say 205, we also check the testing list and see your name and mark it you before we can process you. SCHREIBER: So because people want the biometrics, they will do the test? LIGHE: Yes. KENYAH: So was there a need to incentivize the teachers to cooperate? They are working for their salaries... WILSON: Some of them have fear that immediately they will go to the county and we will identify them and take them off the rolls. LIGHE: ...so you got to talk to them. Normally, we make them to understand that the testing is just there to know your ability and what you can actually do. It's not really there to say if you don't [indecipherable] we'll take your name off, it's to know your ability. KENYAH: So you do this before the test day? In the picture that you show... LIGHE: ...the testing before the biometric. WILSON: We come and explain the entire process to you because we don't want you to be having the fear. Some people come and have fear so we talk to them, don't be afraid. Come and take the test, please, and explain the entire SSI to them. SCHREIBER: You do it yourselves or the CEOs and DEOs do it? Who does that? LIGHE: No, we do it. Most of the time we do it. LIGHE: They don't want to believe their DEO and CEO. So we are ourselves. We have orientation. We talk to them, tell them the essence of the test, the essence of the biometric, and then most of them say oh, we were so afraid about you people. KENYAH: So let's say a typical day, you go in the morning. The teachers will all be there. Then the CEO and DEO will be there, too. You talk about the program to them. They are familiar with it. Then they go take the test. After they take the test, then they go and form a line by school. They form a line and start the biometric process. After that, they are done. And is it possible that a teacher could do this in one day? WILSON: No, it can't be one day. VARNEY: A single teacher won't do the test and the biometric in one day. SCHREIBER: So how long does the test take? WILSON: The test...the first thing they've got to do is the registration on one day. After that day, then we start the biometric. VARNEY: Because the registration is an assigned number so that people cannot be grading people on a [indecipherable] basis. So there's a number... SCHREIBER: Oh, so on the test paper, you don't have the teacher's name? VARNEY: So the test number or the name is hidden. And then people can mark the paper because it's possible that [indecipherable] and if I'm marking the paper as John Brown... WILSON: Yeah, so most of them use the number to... WILSON: So nobody knows anybody. You just go and do it. VARNEY: So after that registration is done...it will take a day to do registration. SCHREIBER: Oh, that's a full day event? LIGHE: Yes. SCHREIBER: Does the prepping of the teachers, talking to the teachers, does that happen before or after? VARNEY: It happens at the same time. As you're doing registration, you go for the consult before you sit. WILSON: Yeah, because some of the districts got a lot of schools within the district. So you got to make sure that everybody assemble and do their registration. And when that is done, you inform them the time this test going to start the following day. That time you see an additional teacher coming again for registration because they never came that day. So with that, the registration will go over, if you're done with your registration, you got to go sit to take the test take the test because now the teacher thought you didn't come on time. KENYAH: But this is generally a three-day process, registration and counseling on day one... KENYAH: Yeah, but roughly speaking. Testing would be day two, and the biometrics would be day three. WILSON: Yeah. LIGHE: For the testing... VARNEY: ...because of the volume of documents and auditing, it's cut at 80 teachers per day. KENYAH: Eighty teachers per day. VARNEY: Maximum. Here we have spillover to late night. For 80 teachers. KENYAH: So say day one, the teachers come. They're registered and maybe you explain the process to them. Day two, they come and take the test. After day two, are teachers given a day they will come for their biometric? VARNEY: Yeah, they're given by school. SCHREIBER: School by school. KENYAH: Last question, the CEO...you organize at the district office. So the DEO obviously will be there because that's where they work. But does the CEO go with you to every district? LIGHE: Yes. WILSON: Because they're his people so he got to be with the team to introduce the team to his people. SCHREIBER: Thanks. I think that was really useful. Innovations for Successful Societies Series: Teacher Payroll Oral History Program Interview number: A8 Use of this transcript is governed by ISS Terms of Use, available at http://successfulsocieties.princeton.edu/