Innovations for Successful Societies


AN INITIATIVE OF
THE WOODROW WILSON SCHOOL OF PUBLIC AND INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS 
AND THE BOBST CENTER FOR PEACE AND JUSTICE



Series: 		Civil Service	
	
Interview no.:		ZT 21

Interviewee: 		Rodrigo Nascimento		

Interviewer:		Rushda Majeed	

Date of Interview:	5 May 2013

Location:		Belo Horizonte, Minas Gerais
			Brazil
					
	




MAJEED: 	This is Rushda Majeed on the 20th May, 2013. I am with Mr. Rodrigo Nascimento who is here with the UAI team. He has been here since 2007, and we're speaking about the UAIs and some of the changes that have happened since it was converted from a PSIU.  Thank you so much for agreeing to speak with us. 

	If I may start this conversation by asking you a little bit about your professional background and learn a little bit about your role here at the Y team. 

NASCIMENTO:		I came here, as I said, in 2007. There was a selection process made by Fernanda, and based on my CV she selected me. As soon as I arrived here she passed on all the information that I needed to know, the objectives. But it was a very complicated moment, because there were three major projects underway. So there was a reorganization of the structure of the department, and Fernanda was responsible for the UAIs, and that's when I came in. She was already thinking about the transition of the PSIU to the institution of the UAI unit. 

	The Secretariat of Planning, the supply, we had the schedule for this transition and Bauru, Sao Joao del Rei, Barbacena, these places had two units. 

	There were three major projects. Of these, two projects now being taken care of by other people, Rodriogo Genis is one of them and Damian Roche. These are the two people responsible for the other two major projects, but they are responsible for the UAI.

MAJEED: 	What are the projects?

NASCIMENTO:		The Port Town Manaus and Lige Manaus, those are the two. 

MAJEED: 	I just wanted to ask you, what was your professional background before joining UAI? What were some of the expertise?

NASCIMENTO:		I was an independent professional. I was involved in several projects in Belo Horizonte and the metropolitan region, and also for the city of Juiz de Fora, where I graduated. The education was a little complicated. I started a course there, in Juiz de Fora, and then came here, studied some disciplines, and then ended up my finishing graduation course at Izabela Hendrix, another institution.

MAJEED: 	So it was in design or architecture?

NASCIMENTO:		Architecture.

MAJEED: 	So you were here at a moment when the PSIUs were going to be converted to UAIs. Could you tell me a little bit about how you would characterize the PSIUs before converting to UAIs? How were they in terms of infrastructure, because I think that was your primary responsibility? 

NASCIMENTO:		Terrible. In terms of infrastructure, it was really bad. Management was also terrible. Before the UAIs were part of the Secretariat for Planning they were part of the CEDRUS.

MAJEED: 	The Urban Development Secretariat?

NASCIMENTO:		The Urban Development Secretariat, yes. When it came to SEPLAG, the Secretariat of Planning, they wanted to modernize the infrastructure. It wasn't going to be converted into UAIs. It was just a modernization project. But then, when we talked to the governor and we said it was a modernization project, he suggested changing the name, as it was a modernization process. Well he said why not change the name to UAIs. 

	An example would be the Barreiro unit. When we finished a modernization project implementation and execution, it was going to be called PSIU. It was then that we talked to the governor and he suggested that we change the name to UAIs. 

MAJEED: 	Around what time would this be, which year?

NASCIMENTO:		Exactly at the end of 2007, the beginning of 2008.

MAJEED: 	What was the reason-would you be able to comment on why there was this discussion of changing the name? Why did the governor feel that it was important? 

NASCIMENTO:		There was a lot of politics involved but what we understood was that he wanted to give it a different name because he didn't want the name of this new modernization project linked to the reputation that PSIU already had. The PSIU was seen as something bad. And the name was very appropriate, using an expression from Minas Gerais: UAI, integrated service unit. We wanted to provide as many services, public services, as possible to the citizens.

MAJEED: 	Actually we were talking more in detail about how the infrastructure of the PSIUs was before conversion, and you said that it was terrible and you were going to give me some examples of how it was terrible. 

NASCIMENTO:		The furniture was really bad, it was terrible. The working conditions were not good, very poor lighting, dirty walls with paint marks or ink marks on it, because of the collection of fingerprints. The cabling, the electric system was the poorest. The workstations--everything was trashed. There was no architectural standard. It was really bad. We have pictures of the before and after if you want to see them. 

MAJEED: 	One of the things I wanted to clarify is: would you know why the management of the PSIUs was transferred from the Urban Development Secretariat to this particular unit? 

NASCIMENTO:		I do not know.

MAJEED: 	No problem. So now you had an implementation plan. You had terrible infrastructure in terms of the PSIUs and you were moving towards UAIs. What were some of the design changes or planning that you were undertaking to be able to implement a new structure? 

NASCIMENTO:		The first challenge was the budget. And the second challenge was to use the same building for a different purpose. We had to make some adaptations. Another challenge was to pre-evaluate the space and building and propose a reduction of the space utilized for this new architectural standard or project. Because there is this culture that change is not always welcome for public administrators.

MAJEED: 	I don't understand the reduction of space.

NASCIMENTO:		The reduction of space is that, for example, a supervisor was used to working in a 60 sq. meter room and now he would have to work in a 10 sq. meter room, because the architectural project said he would have a 10 sq. meter room. This affects the ego of these people, the supervisors. By far the biggest challenge was the budget because we had a lot of units and we had a short period of time. As an example, I designed two units in six days.

MAJEED: 	What was the rush?

NASCIMENTO:		It was a political issue. At the time, we didn't know if there was going to be a change in the political party. It was the time of elections and political transition. We didn't know if the government we had would continue in power or not. It was in the interest of the politicians at the time to make things happen in their own term. 

MAJEED: 	In terms of implementation I just wanted to understand a little bit of the details that went into planning. What were you looking to change? One thing that you mentioned was that you would redesign the entire building. What were some of the other things-what was your mandate as somebody who was going to redesign the infrastructure of these UAIs?

NASCIMENTO:		As I had great responsibility in conveying these new spaces, these new areas, I had to make sure that this new project would make the use of the building possible. There were some complementary or additional projects made by other engineers who participated in the design of these units. I had to review the designs that the engineers submitted to make sure the building would work. I also had the responsibility of checking, or making the financial and economic balance of the construction work that was involved in bids, and the budget that we had for execution. And the support, of course, of the areas.

	The Department of Public Construction Work, this is the department that supported us in the financial evaluation or economic evaluation of the construction work. This is specific to the government of Minas Gerais. 

MAJEED: 	So you said the Department of Public Works?

NASCIMENTO:		Public Works, yes.

MAJEED: 	What was the budget? 

NASCIMENTO:		It varied; each construction work had its own budget. We spent around 8 million real (BRL)] at the unit downtown. There were two construction moments there at this unit, Praça Sete. The first one was really to rebuild the place and the other was to restore or to recover the part of the building that was listed as historic. 

MAJEED: 	One thing I just wanted to clarify. You had the responsibility for creating and converting the units. Were all the UAI units converted from PSIUs or there were some new ones that you built as well? 

NASCIMENTO:		We had to build two things. Barbacena is one of them, and Ouro Preto is one. It was 22 units, including the new ones. I'd have to check.  

MAJEED: 	No problem, thank you. When you were converting the PCUs to the new UAIs, you had one responsibility to redesign the new areas and then the other one was the financial and economic management for the contract, is that correct? 

NASCIMENTO:		It was more like an analysis of the expenditure that we had of the construction work. The development of the project required studies so we had to do a survey to check the files that each department would bring to this building. We had a survey of the demand of the building. We had to create a standard identification of that unit so that people could identify it easily in our altered state. 

	We wanted to overcome the prejudice towards change, which is embedded in the culture of the state. 

MAJEED: 	One of the things that you said you surveyed is demand, and I just wanted to know what that meant and how you did it. 

NASCIMENTO:		The demand that each of the departments had, or all the departments that would be in that building. I had to check everything, all the departments that would stay in that unit. For instance, the Civil Police would have to stay in the UAI unit. How many people would be there? How many people from the Civil Police; how many files would they bring with them? What kind of space do they need, so that I can plan everything. What was the hierarchy of that department or that body? It was important to know these details. 

	I always try to add value to the people in the projects that I develop because architecture changes the way people work.    

MAJEED: 	One of the things that you mentioned, that you had to deal with resistance from workers--which is the nature of the civil service, that they are resistant to change. I was wondering how you were able to handle that and what were some of the problems you faced and how were you able to work on those? 

NASCIMENTO:		I tried the hardest I could to create the same reality that these people had before. This is one side of the story. I made an effort to make them comfortable and to stick to the reality they had before. But there was, on the other hand, an imposition of the state which said: this is the place you'll have to work, if you don't want to work here that is sad, this is the reality. 

MAJEED: 	So in terms of the workers and officials, these were hired from the company MGS? 

NASCIMENTO:		A great number of them came from MGS because the state has a contract, not all of them. Because only MGS can provide services to the state, it is restricted, but in two constructions there was a bid. 

MAJEED: 	In two constructions? 

NASCIMENTO:		Sorry, three, not two: Ouro Preto, [indecipherable.] These real estate, these buildings, belonged to the state, that's why they were involved in a bid. Their construction was a bid. 

MAJEED: 	For the MGS, I just want to understand how the company works. How does it work in terms of supplying workers to the state? What is the status of the civil servants? What regime do they belong to? 

NASCIMENTO:		This is a company that provides services only. It was created to provide services to the state. It has been in the market for twenty-five years. They have, the company has, all kinds of workers: bricklayers, painters... 

MAJEED: 	So the way that it would work was that you would tell them the number-or the unit--would tell them the number of workers that you need at a UAI and they would supply that number of workers? 

NASCIMENTO:		Once the executive projects were ready, we would pass these projects on to two engineers of MGS. These two engineers would put the team together to build the unit. So this is how it works: the demand comes from the Secretary of Planning. I am the person responsible. I would be the "boss" of these engineers. Of course they have their own boss there. They would put the team together to work and provide the workers.

	The Secretariat does not have the staff to execute this kind of work. Most of the people in the Secretariat of Planning are public administrators. 

MAJEED: 	So you are the only person on the team here who is working on this kind of project?

NASCIMENTO:		We were hired by the Secretariat. Most of the people on Fernanda's team are there in the market. We are here, just hired to do the job. 

MAJEED: 	My question was with the kind of responsibilities in terms of infrastructure, are you the only person on the team who has-? 

NASCIMENTO:		In the beginning I used to work with Christiani, she is a designer. You are going to interview her right? After 70% of the units were completed, there was a kind of separation or reorganization. I am the one responsible for the project management and infrastructure. But I am the only one who is here since the beginning.

MAJEED: 	One of the things you mentioned earlier was that there were different kinds of workers. Not in terms of the construction staff, but in terms of people working at the CPUs and then later at the UAIs, there were different kinds. Some came through the MGS but there were other kinds of workers through different contracts, is that correct? 

NASCIMENTO:		These other workers came from the bids that we had to build these three other units. Offices specialized in construction work. 

MAJEED: 	Also in terms of redesigning the physical space, you mentioned earlier that you had undertaken some design and planning. Were there any models that you looked at in particular? Were you looking out of the country in terms of how to design this? 

NASCIMENTO:		No, everything came from my mind. Of course we had previous knowledge of other units in different states, but everything came from here. Otherwise my identity wouldn't be there as an architect. The examples of the units in the other states were not to my liking; I didn't bring anything. 

MAJEED: 	But I would still be interested in knowing what states you looked at. 

NASCIMENTO:		Sao Paulo, Bahia...I remember these names but I don't remember exactly the states.

MAJEED: 	I understand, but you looked at Bahia and Sao Paulo. 

NASCIMENTO:		Yes.

MAJEED: 	How do you think your design was an improvement over what they had?

NASCIMENTO:		What stands out is the comfort. One example is Poupatempo [in Sao Paulo]. Poupatempo had some benches for the population to wait and they sit there and wait on wooden benches. We have cushioned chairs for the population to wait here so it is different in comfort. 

MAJEED: 	And in terms of workers, also, you tried to make it comfortable for them as well? 

NASCIMENTO:		I was concerned with the workstations, to make them convenient for the people, and more appropriate according to the services being provided. In the project we have some segments. One of them is the front desk; this is one segment alone. Then we have the waiting room and the service room, that is another segment. The third segment is the back offices, and the fourth one is the administrative support of the unit. We have the dressing rooms there, and we have an area for coffee break. This is a standard in the units. We always have these four sectors, these four segments. 

	Have you ever seen the units?

MAJEED: 	I went to the UAI in downtown Praça Sete, I don't know-.  

NASCIMENTO:		You should have seen the small one to understand these sectors as different sectors because Praça Sete is big, it is large. I can show you later. 

MAJEED: 	Sure. 

NASCIMENTO:		It is confusing, Praça Sete because it is a lot of floors and a lot of people.

MAJEED: 	Yes, it is.

NASCIMENTO:		A lot of levels on the same floor... 

MAJEED: 	So it doesn't conform to the center?

NASCIMENTO:		There are two buildings together, one is listed as historical so it is a different architectural concept and there is another one which is more contemporary; that is why it escapes the standard. That is why it is a bit different. 

MAJEED: 	One other thing I wanted to ask you is, that in terms of your work with MGS and trying to get workers--because they're the agency that is responsible for materials for the state or supplies for the state--were there any legal changes required?

NASCIMENTO:		I am not aware of it but Vanessa would be able to answer your question, because she is the lawyer. It is very specific.

MAJEED: 	Sure. In terms of implementation of these UAIs, I know you were doing infrastructure, so you had a design and you were following it. Did you have to make any adjustments to the implementation plan along the way? 

NASCIMENTO:		A lot of adjustments. The departments in that building, or in that unit, that would stay there sometimes changed. The department wouldn't sign the agreement to stay at the unit, so we had to find or discover who the department was going to be, survey to understand what their needs were going to be, and then make the necessary changes to the design to accommodate them in the space. 

	The civil construction alterations were very, very few. We just changed these other items that I mentioned because of the change in departments, the agreements that weren't signed, and other departments that came. For instance, the DETRAN was going to be there in a unit, but all of a sudden it was not going to be there anymore. We got everything for the DETRAN and it no longer existed there. We had to re-think the space. 

	The UAIs are like a mall--you probably heard that from Fernanda--because the departments in there are like shops. If they no longer want to be there, we'll put somebody else in, we'll change. When we have this issue--when we don't know which department is coming or not, which is taken or not--these are the challenges that we face. We are responsible for providing the spaces. 

MAJEED: 	It seems kind of arbitrary that the agencies would pull out, is there not a contract? Would you know if there is a contract in place for them to be there for a certain time? What would be some of the reasons for the agencies to pull out? 	

NASCIMENTO:		We assume that all the departments in that unit are going to want to stay there in the UAI unit, and other departments as well. The problem is that the agreement is signed after they occupy the space. They have to be there before they sign. So they don't come, they never sign, and the space is there waiting for the department. 

MAJEED: 	May I ask, and I can ask others if you point me to them, why is that stipulation there? There seems to be, in terms of a contractual agreement, that there would be some guarantee that they would come. 

NASCIMENTO:		In addition to this agreement there is no other guarantee. What has to be clear is we try to put all these departments together to provide the services that they offer in one place. But each department, or each agency, has the right not to be together. If they want to be somewhere else, no problem. The only thing we have is this agreement. 

	A lot of the work of bringing these departments or these agencies together is done by Renata Vilhena, Breno and Fernanda on behalf of Renata Vilhena. They want to bring these units together, these agencies together. It is the same concept of the Cidade Administrativa. We want to put together all the secretariats, all the agencies in the state. We're trying to do the same with the UAI units.   

MAJEED: 	How would you evaluate the first UAI units that were opened? For instance, did they represent a significant improvement over the PSIUs?

NASCIMENTO:		In terms of infrastructure, the change was radical. But the operational management didn't improve that much, because we can't change the process that much, for instance, the ID's that were produced. The processes are the basically the same; the infrastructure is completely different. So the way the IDs are made is still the same, the pictures are glued to the paper and there's ink on the finger. That is to say there was no significant change in that area. 

	We are now with a pioneer project to modernize this production of IDs. We are submitting it to the Civil Police. 

MAJEED: 	In terms of now, the UAIs that have been established, the 28 around the state, what kind of reporting or feedback mechanisms do you have in place in terms of things breaking down, or infrastructure upgrades that are required or replacement? How does it work if things have to be fixed? 

NASCIMENTO:		We use a Google Docs drive. We receive all the reports for the infrastructure. At MGS they have a different tool; they have access to these reports and they take the necessary measures to solve these problems at the units. They are developing a new tool to monitor or to improve on this tool that is already in place, and everybody is going to be involved or integrated. Everybody will have access, the service provider MGS, and the Secretariat of Planning. Of course there are going to be different levels of access, but all the feedback is going to be monitored. 

	One critical issue is that today we do corrective maintenance; we want to do preventive maintenance. And with this new tool, and knowing the durability of these materials, we'll be able to take action beforehand. I have a sketch of this new tool working on preventive maintenance rather than corrective maintenance.  

MAJEED: 	Just to get a sense of what is happening now, you have a Google Docs drive and you receive all the written reports about the infrastructure. Do you receive these reports on a daily basis or a monthly basis? 

NASCIMENTO:	 	Because it is corrective maintenance, for example, [Indecipherable] sent me like ten reports every day. And another unit, Barbacena, two, sometimes, not even one. It is according to the demand.

MAJEED: 	But it is daily?

NASCIMENTO:		It is daily. MGS only gets these reports with feedback every week, every Friday, because it is a different tool. I have to compile everything and send it to them. And we integrate our reports with MGS via Dropbox.  

MAJEED: 	Great, then MGS receives these reports through Dropbox and then they monitor them. But they will take action on a weekly basis? How quick is their response time? 

NASCIMENTO:		I will get this information to you. We have one spreadsheet for the occurrences, the reports, the calls, and one to manage these calls. So we have the days, the response time. I can go there and cache it if you want.

MAJEED: 	I'd love to get it later, after the interview. 

NASCIMENTO:	 	Okay.

MAJEED: 	You were saying you have one spreadsheet for the-. 

NASCIMENTO:		One for the occurrences and one for the management of these occurrences, the response time. 

MAJEED: 	So you have two. 

NASCIMENTO:	 	Again, these two spreadsheets: one to receive the reports from the units and another one to establish a relationship with MGS and to manage. With the new tool that we are developing I will get different levels of access. And this will be online.  

MAJEED: 	Just in general terms, though, because I know you have the specifics in the spreadsheet, if somebody files a complaint with you today, you get it to MGS at the end of the week. Would they generally respond within a week or a month? I'm just trying to get an idea. Great, so I'll get the spreadsheet from you later, and that will be very helpful to get the macro groups. 

NASCIMENTO:		Okay.

MAJEED: 	So the new tool that you're developing can you tell me a little more about it? You already mentioned that there will be different levels of access, but in terms of overall the broader vision for the tool, how are you designing it? 

NASCIMENTO:		The main idea is to integrate the management of these three parties: the UAIs, MGS and us. We want to manage everything together. Sometimes, for instance, the coordinator of the unit doesn't know that, because of an inefficiency of the service provider, MGS, it was not serviced.  

MAJEED: 	So the coordinator does not know.

NASCIMENTO:		With the new tool, the coordinator will be able to know who is to blame, who to report to, who to talk to. It will clarify the process. 

MAJEED: 	Anything else about the-? 

NASCIMENTO:		All of the data in these complaints was being passed on to the managers meeting, so these managers could demand from the service provider MGS to take more efficient action. When you see this tool you will understand it better.

MAJEED: 	And these managers' meetings, those are the monthly meetings that they have? 

NASCIMENTO:		Yes, they are monthly meetings with the State Secretary. 

MAJEED: 	So the State Secretary is there, that would be the Secretariat of SEPLAG, and the managers, which means the coordinators of the UAIs? 

NASCIMENTO:		The members of these meetings are the representatives of the projects, and we have other representatives-. 

MAJEED: 	So when you say managers, those are the managers that you mean. I just have a few more questions.

NASCIMENTO:		No problem. 

MAJEED: 	One question I had is about the UAIs in Belo Horizonte and the UAIs in the interiors. Is there a difference in the infrastructure and if so in what way?

NASCIMENTO:		No, just the size, not in terms of infrastructure, just the size. 

MAJEED: 	And in terms of what we discussed earlier, in terms of things breaking and replacements and so on, they would be under the same mechanism for getting things to work and they would also go through MGS?

NASCIMENTO:		Except the six units that fall under the PPP model. But it is basically the same structure. It is online. They identify the agency, they report the problem and they deal with the problem in the same way that we do here. The six units under the PPP model, we can anticipate a way to improve the process of fixing problems and reporting, because this is the future. I don't know if it is going to be one company or a consortium of companies managing the units but we already are predicting different mechanisms. We have great mechanisms to audit units under the PPP model. 

	I already have a checklist that I use with these six units and when we have other units under this model, we'll be able to improve even more. 

MAJEED: 	What is the checklist? 

NASCIMENTO:		Remember I mentioned four segments in each unit, front desk and waiting rooms-because we have these sections it is easier for us to create excel spreadsheets and itemize everything so we can evaluate the items. After we do the checklist, we write a report with all the points for improvement and we send it formally to the consortium, or the group of the companies managing the unit, or the company, and that's it. Now you know everything about my job. 

MAJEED: 	So you said that after the checklist you write a report with all the items and send it to the company. 

NASCIMENTO:	 	Well, it is not over. We expect them to develop an action plan. Of course we monitor this action plan and its implementation. But we are still at the initial phase and we don't have much data. I can't just interfere, that is why it happens this way. 

	I've been through two different moments in this experience. The first one was the actual implementation of these units. I designed the project, I made it come true: we built the physical structures. This was the first moment. 

	The second moment is more related to managing these units. I'm not worried about the physical structure anymore. I'm worried about managing them. I've been asking myself--am I still an architect or a manager of architectural work? 

MAJEED: 	In terms of the PPPs, I just have one question. Was there any change to infrastructure that was made when the six UAIs were converted into PPPs? Were there any changes or everything remained the same except it went over to a private company. 

NASCIMENTO:		Nothing changed. They have more money; they can invest it in materials. But they have to follow the standard design we have. What changes really is who manages everything.  

MAJEED: 	So they have more money and they can invest in--.

NASCIMENTO:		In the materials. They can afford to use better quality materials. But the standard is the same. The project still is the same. They don't have the budget issues that we have. 

MAJEED: 	I'm just trying to look now for some metrics of success in terms of understanding what according to you has been successful. How would you measure success? You've been here for a number of years and you've been one of the earliest team members. Looking back how would you measure success of the UAIs, if any? 

NASCIMENTO:		The state has in place some mechanisms to measure or to check the success of these units. One of them is the efficiency coefficient. It is a calculation that involves three elements, the time that the person is there waiting, the time for the service to be provided and the satisfaction of the customer. I've developed this project, but it hasn't been materialized yet. To elaborate, we would write a questionnaire about the infrastructure of the units and the citizens would answer this questionnaire. But it is not put in place yet. 

MAJEED: 	The other detail question I had is, going back, the new online system that you're developing: when did you start developing it and when will it be completely put in place?  

NASCIMENTO:	 	It started this year; the whole is team working. The infrastructure is complete, but it contains a lot of fields of knowledge in order to make it fully available and functional. 

MAJEED: 	So when do you predict?

NASCIMENTO:	 	I'm not the right person to answer the question of when this project is going to be completed, because there is a consulting firm providing services to us regarding programming of this; it is in the portal. This portal is concerned with documenting all the papers that we have, and it takes time because it involves different areas of expertise. So I don't know when this will be completed.

MAJEED: 	And my final question is-again, you've been here a number of years--what, according to you, could the Minas UAI model do better? The reason I ask is that we look at a number of these across the world and we want to see what are some of the elements that could be transferred over, but what are some of the things that are very particular to Minas and would not be able to transfer. So I'm just trying to get a sense of applicability to other environments.  

NASCIMENTO:	 	I think that as soon as these units become-or follow the PPP model-- they're going to get much better. The structure of the state is good for planning and innovating, but not for managing. We can't reach everybody, we can't do the follow up we want to do. We don't have enough resources, especially human resources, to take care of everything. 

	When you see the results of the system that we have for the infrastructure, you'll understand what I'm saying. The response time for a report, for a complaint is very, very long. The UAIs compared, to other service units, moved forward. We still have a lot of resistance from the representatives of other departments or agencies to improve these processes to provide services. This is what keeps us from doing even better and moving forward. 

	As we all want to make the state the best state in the country to live, we here in the Secretariat want to make the UAIs the best service units in the country....in Brazil because the units in Portugal are phenomenal. I don't know if you know the units in Portugal, it is an interesting idea to visit Portugal. Fernanda would be able to give you more details because she went there recently.    

MAJEED: 	Also she visited while you were doing the diagnostic? 

NASCIMENTO:		A lot later, it was later. If I had seen it before I would change the project.  

MAJEED: 	Anything else I've missed you would like to add? 

NASCIMENTO:		I really love this project with the UAIs, professionally and personally, because on a personal level I'm helping people and that's what makes me happy. But there are several projects here under the Secretariat. These projects would improve the units so much; the problem is the budget. We are within the state structure and we are limited in terms of resources. We are sure that these projects would take us even further and we've made a lot of progress but in the end the structure doesn't allow us to move forward that fast. Time constraints are difficult, the schedules that we have to follow. They call the UAI project the dinosaur because it's old, but I love it. Maybe I am a dinosaur, not the project itself. I am going to be identified with one of those tags because of how old I am. 

MAJEED: 	Thank you so much. 








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