Innovations for Successful Societies AN INITIATIVE OF THE WOODROW WILSON SCHOOL OF PUBLIC AND INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS AND THE BOBST CENTER FOR PEACE AND JUSTICE Series: Anti- Corruption Interview no.: H 1 Interviewee: Graham Stockwell Interviewer: Gabriel Kuris Date of Interview: 12 August 2013 Location: London, England Innovations for Successful Societies, Bobst Center for Peace and Justice Princeton University, 83 Prospect Avenue, Princeton, New Jersey, 08544, USA www.princeton.edu/successfulsocieties KURIS: This is Gabriel Kuris, I am here with Mr. Graham Stockwell in London, August 12th, 2013. Thank you very much for joining us, Mr. Stockwell. So, a lot of the reformers who listen to these interviews like to hear something about the background of the person we're talking to. Can you tell me a bit about how you became involved in fighting corruption, and what took you to Hong Kong, in the first place. STOCKWELL: I first joined the Metropolitan Police as a young constable. Prior to that, 18 to 21, I was in the Coldstream Guards. While in the Guards I decided that the police would be a good career for me. Like all constables in the British police, I did my initial time on the beat, before I was selected to become a detective, which was after about three years. Since then I've served in almost all of the central divisions of London like West End Central and Chelsea, but almost 50% of my detective time has been in either Criminal Intelligence or in white-collar crime in the Company Fraud Department of the Metropolitan Police. I have been involved in investigating white-collar crime in almost every rank from the detective constable rank up until I eventually retired from the Metropolitan Police as a Commander. At that time I was a Commander of the Metropolitan and City of London Company Fraud Department. Prior to that I had also been the head of Criminal Intelligence and had also been the head of the Flying Squad and the Regional Crime Squads. Just prior to my thirty years [in the force], I was asked to go to Hong Kong. I was eligible to retire although I was then at the age of about 49 so I could have carried on in the Metropolitan Police until I was 57. I was asked to consider going to Hong Kong to be the Head of Operations, Deputy Commissioner of the Independent Commission Against Corruption (ICAC). I really came into active anti-corruption work at that time although, as I've said, I was involved in the investigation of corruption and white-collar crime quite seriously before that. Prior to Hong Kong I had not given a great deal of thought to the prevention or to the educational aspects. I was to learn that with the three-pronged attack of the Hong Kong system-that the prevention and the education was in fact a vital part of reforming a society. When I was in Hong Kong, I paid a great deal of attention to these two disciplines. I served in Hong Kong from 1984-until 1992. KURIS: Was this under Mr. (Bertrand) de Speville-was Mr. de Speville the head at this point? STOCKWELL: No, he came after me. He was after me as Commissioner. My Commissioners were Mr. Geoffrey Barnes who was quite excellent and David Jeaffreson. Then right at the last it was Mr. Peter Allen, who unfortunately died. Then, from the Botswana point of view-if you want me to go into that-this was quite a shock to me because once again I was going to retire and these two very, very big black guys appeared at the building, the ICAC building in Hong Kong, asked to see me, and they then recounted to me all the problems of Botswana. This was quite extraordinary because, one, I'd never heard of Botswana and it was a surprise as these two gentlemen arriving unannounced on the other side of the globe! That was the start, as they recounted to me the problems of corruption that they had recently experienced in Botswana. They left me after a day or so of viewing the operation within the ICAC. with a request to consider whether I might think of travelling to Botswana to advise them. They were clearly very, very impressed with the operation of the ICAC but even more so with the dedication of the young Chinese officers, boys and girls who incredibly impressed these two gentlemen from Africa. My wife and I left Hong Kong in June 1992 and the next I heard about Botswana was a telephone call from their highest civil servant, the Permanent Secretary to the President, Mr. Legwaila, who asked me to come to Botswana to view their problems. KURIS: Do you have any idea how they found you in Hong Kong? Who recommended you? STOCKWELL: What actually happened is these two gentlemen from Botswana had realized the problem in Botswana. Mr. Hirschfeld [one of the two men] I later established had in fact attended courses at New Scotland Yard and had been incredibly impressed with the detectives at New Scotland Yard of that day. This would have been some time previously. It was his view to visit Scotland Yard and find out what to do about their problems. At Scotland Yard I know they were seen by Sir Kenneth Newman, the Commissioner, and then they were seen by Mr. Kelland who was my Assistant Commissioner of Crime and his deputies, a Mr. Steventon and a Mr. Powis They were given a day or so at New Scotland Yard. Eventually Hirschfeld and Stoneham were told that they were aware that I was finishing in Hong Kong in June of that year and that their best bet would be to go to an anti-corruption organization such as Hong Kong that had an excellent reputation and see Mr. Stockwell and maybe he would be able to help you. KURIS: So then you went to visit Botswana and conducted an assessment. What did you find in this assessment? What were some of the problems that you found? STOCKWELL: We were there for a fortnight. I was given complete openness to all of the files on corruption, that related to corruption within the police, the customs and the tax offices. I was given a liaison officer, a Superintendent Burupi. He opened all the doors I wanted to enter. I was able then to go into the police, talk to police officers, customs officers and tax officers, go to the border at Kazungula and interview lorry drivers, etc. etc. Also the financial aspects like the Accountant General's office and the Treasury. I very soon established that there were problems within the tendering process. There was what in corruption terms, "speed money"-that is jumping the queue-with respect to the Accountant General's Office. There was undoubtedly corruption payment of sums of money to police officers to evade speeding offenses, et cetera. Having looked through all of the police files that related to corruption and the customs and the taxes, they were not in my view being properly investigated. There was corruption present but it was obvious that corruption was not being properly investigated and attended to. So I was able to report the situation eventually to a very large committee chaired by the Attorney General, Mr.Skelimani. KURIS: So how did you end up becoming Director of the DCEC (Directorate on Commission and Economic Crime)? STOCKWELL: What happened was that having given this briefing, which was quite extensive, I estimated that there would be approximately a thousand cases that would require proper investigation during the course of a year. I estimated a force to do the investigation, prevention, and education aspects as per Hong Kong, which of course the Botswana government was interested in, would require a force to begin with of at least sixty individuals, men and women. Of these I recommended that at least a quarter would be expatriate officers with threefold capabilities. He would be an investigator, he would also have experience in training and be able to give on-the-job training to local people. KURIS: So then did they immediately ask you to lead this force? STOCKWELL: My wife and I returned home and again I eventually received another call from Mr. Legwaila who said, " We would like you to initially head a taskforce of four others to really go into the subject and present a blueprint report to the Government and to the President for his acceptance." Mr. Legwaila informed me that they had two people in Botswana that they would like to be on the taskforce and that was a Mr. John Ebdy, an expatriate who had come from the UK (United Kingdom), a customs man, and set up the small customs investigation branch and a Mr. Thambipillai who was a Sri Lankan who was a tax expert, an expatriate as well. Then they gave me the opportunity to appoint two others. I got in touch with one of my assistant directors, Mr. Roger Batty who was with me in Hong Kong and previously a Metropolitan Detective-Chief Inspector. I also contacted Mr. Russell Allen who was one of my Superintendents when I was Commander of the Fraud Squad. He was an excellent trainer at the Metropolitan Police Detective Training College. So I approached those two and they were willing to travel and everything was booked. The Botswana Government agreed with it immediately and sent them letters of contract, et cetera. They were out there literally overnight. We were all happy to accept. On that first trip we had in fact seen the accommodation because we had visited one or two expatriates' homes. They struck me as very nice people, big people of course, as you've seen, very big people. By being with the police there was very little in the way of crime compared to what we have here or what they had in Hong Kong. So we felt quite safe going there. Anyway they showed me a nice bungalow in Dinatla Close. . I rang my wife and who gamely said all right - go ahead. KURIS: How long did you expect to be there when you signed on? STOCKWELL: We expected to be there two years. KURIS: You ended up staying three years? STOCKWELL: Almost four. KURIS: So what were some of your goals when you first came in to head the DCEC? What were some of the priorities and goals you set? STOCKWELL: The initial action , once I arrived (in Oct 1993) was to find office accommodation . We had to find a place to operate from. We found that on the Broadhurst Industrial Site (in Gaborone). It was only a commercial building, a two-floor commercial building, completely empty. So we can honestly say we started without a paperclip; we didn't have anything. Initially it was quite a task from being in the Met (Metropolitan Police) where everything was done for you and then in Hong Kong where there was even more money available. It was an incredible problem to get resources. I really had to go around the various departments in the Botswana Government to acquire equipment. I needed furniture, I needed the Botswana legal tomes, we needed everything in order to do our job. Of course we needed a driver; we needed cars. As I said we started from scratch. We eventually got through it. The five of us went through everything. Batty and I were able to put together a report that backed up what the volume was that we expected: the staff we needed; the levels of staff we needed; all those aspects that had to do with administration. Neither Batty nor I were administrators; we were both investigators. Anyway we succeeded and just before Christmas we put in our Report. Within a few weeks Mr. Legwaila rang again and said, "The President and the Government of Botswana accept your report and you are now The Director of the DCEC (The Directorate against Corruption and Economic Crime)." The next action was to get things moving, to get started on investigations. All of us were investigators (the five of us) anyway so we could all take on board important cases that were necessary to do at the time. I then advised Mr.Legwaila to form a "Government formation policy group and I recommended that in the interim we take in police officers, customs officers and tax officers to start it off on the premise that when we had recruited from the UK and from the local community these officers would return to their various departments. We were really only going to recruit graduates but we did recruit one or two others but primarily, like in Hong Kong, they were all graduates. This interim measure I explained to the people of Botswana via the radio as they had no Botswana TV station at that time. In fact one or two of the policemen were so keen on doing this job that they left the police and joined us. They became excellent DCEC officers. I kept to my word and as we recruited, those that were happy to return to their separate departments; the police; the customs and tax people went back . Eventually we got all of our recruits from the UK and the local community. The next phase was that Batty and I were then involved in preparing the legislation. Batty & I together with the Attorney General Mr. Skilimani, the Deputy Attorney General Mr. Kirby and the Law Draftsman Mr. Tet Teh were then involved in the actual forming of the Legislation of the DCEC. The Legislation was then presented to Parliament by Mr. Merafge, the Minister of Presidential Affairs and accepted. Batty and I were present during the Minister's presentation with answers to questions if required. It was quite an interesting exercise. KURIS: So the DCEC is different from Hong Kong's ICAC in some significant ways. What were some of the reasons why it differed? For example, it doesn't have prosecution powers and it doesn't have citizen advisory boards. STOCKWELL: The prosecution powers were exactly the same as in Hong Kong. In Hong Kong all of our investigations went to a particular section of the Attorney General's office. From a prosecution-powers point of view, individual members of the ICAC of a certain rank actually did go to court and prosecute as we did in the Metropolitan Police as detectives. Initially in Botswana all of our cases, all of our investigations went to the Deputy Attorney General, Mr. Tafa. He was the primary person we sent cases to and he might have farmed them out to one or two others. Then he and I would have a monthly meeting, or earlier, more often if necessary to discuss where we were on individual cases. It was only after some length of time when things were not going through the courts as quick as I thought they should, that I asked for particularly the expatriate officers to be allowed to prosecute some of the cases in the courts of Botswana. KURIS: Was that allowed? STOCKWELL: Yes it was. But I must say I was never happy with the speed that cases went through the courts in Botswana. It was much too slow, a laborious procedure. KURIS: Now the Botswana DCEC is unique among some of the agencies I've studied in that it has multiple different branch offices. Was that a strategy from the start? STOCKWELL: Yes. Once we got the legislation through I decided that the next course was that each of the five of us would go to all of the parts of Botswana and explain the legislation, explain our intentions of recruitment and setting up the DCEC. We divided the country. The country is huge; it is the size of France with 1.5 or 2 million people. I personally did the talks in Gabarone. I did Serowe in northern Botswana, Lobatse and I talked to all the professional bodies and the diplomats. The High Commissioner at the time, John Edwards called together all the diplomatic people and I explained to them what the DCEC was about and how we were going to proceed. Between the five of us, before we actually started being operational, we had visited all of the main areas of Botswana and very importantly all of the land boards and we had spread the message. So everybody knew what we were about. Of course I had spoken to the media, to the newspapers and I had been on the radio. So we had spread the message. We were very well accepted because we had explained everything that we wanted to do. Very importantly we had, which of course is important in any aspect of anti-corruption, we had the support of President, Sir Quett Masire. He was very supportive as indeed were his other Ministers although we had one Minister who walked out during the Parliamentary discussions. Also we had to explain everything to Members of the House of Chiefs (Ntlo ya Dikgosi). That was very important because they rule their individual tribes. KURIS: Did you find them very accepting of this idea? STOCKWELL: Yes, they were. Of course General Khama was Chief of the Bangwato tribe. The Chief of the Bangwaketse tribe was a very powerful man. . So yes, we spread the message. There could be no criticism that this was sprung upon them. Then I was asked, as the Director, (I was given the rank of an F2, which is a Permanent Secretary rank.) by Mr. Legwaila to attend the permanent secretary's meetings and if there was a question that was coming up about education or anything to do with morality, Sir Quett Masire, the President, called me to his meetings. So they treated me extremely well from that point of view, to be at the meetings. I was able to put my two pennies in on various subjects. KURIS: In terms of the investigations, did you try to kind of start strong with some big wins or do you kind of slowly build capacity? STOCKWELL: It was more of what was on the table. The initial problem was the Botswana Housing Corporation. So yes, we started with that extensive investigation. Of course (Joseph) Letsholo was already dead but we then concentrated on his deputy, a person called (G.F.) Rabana and others. We concluded that successfully. He had disappeared. I think we eventually got him back from South Africa. We dealt with the main ones. There were one or two others cases where we recouped lots of money. These were more economic crime cases. We started off very well. We had some good results. Of course one of them that I dealt with personally was the Secretary of the Treasury. We had some good cases but they were purely those that were on the books and continued to flow in. We didn't pick and choose; we just simply did the investigations as cases were reported. KURIS: I know another important reform that was started early on was starting a process to sift through all these different complaints that were coming in and to kind of triage which cases to pursue, which cases to forward to other agencies. STOCKWELL:. Of course we had to abide by the legislation as to who had the responsibility to investigate individual complaints. I did a morning directorate meeting to ensure that anything that came in was immediately actioned and commenced with. Obviously there were cases, until people became aware of which cases were of interest to the DCEC and which were purely police cases or other department cases. Yes, that was immediate, that we sifted cases that required investigation by the DCEC. Those that didn't, we sent to other departments, but even though those that we didn't investigate were all part of the intelligence base. They were not wasted from the point of view of the DCEC because you are in fact gaining intelligence from the reporting of cases. The educational program went along at the same time. As you know in the DCEC we had the Investigation, Prevention and Education Departments. We had an ongoing meeting with the Prevention and Education to keep them up to date. For instance, when we appreciated what was going on in the Accountant General's office to do with speed bribery, we then sent in the educational and the corruption prevention people to advise them on how to counteract it. It was a joint venture Early in 1994 I had recruited two excellent officers skilled in prevention and education from the ICAC in Hong Kong. Both these officers, Milford and Lester, held senior ranks in the ICAC and gave excellent service to Botswana. KURIS: Besides this complementarity that you're talking about between the different divisions, were there other strategic goals that you had in prevention and in education when you were starting off? STOCKWELL: The goal was to make Botswana corruption free. KURIS: Were there certain strategies that you pursued, certain priorities? STOCKWELL: Yes, initially the priorities were those that came out of the investigation. So if there was a problem in the Accountant General's office or there was a problem in the tendering department, the corruption prevention and the education people applied themselves to those. But gradually the educational people produced pamphlets and posters. That was an excellent idea and they were posted all over Botswana. I can't remember-there were some very, very good ones that were posted up. There was one I can remember with handcuffs. This is what will happen if you get caught by DCEC. The goal was basically to spread that message educationally so that everybody was aware of it. The best way to reach everybody was to talk on the radio to reach everybody. This is rather funny. Our maid came to us one morning, and said: " do you know what the kids are saying". I said no. They are saying-I gather it is a chant-"Look out, Stockwell is about." This came from the children. So the message went out, the message was there. At the same time, while I was there, we had people coming to us from Swaziland, Lesotho, Tanzania, Uganda, all over the place. They were all coming to look at the DCEC setup. We were in this accommodation on Broadhurst Industrial Estate. But at the same time, Batty and I were engaged in doing the administration whilst the other three could then get on with the investigations and training. We had three excellent trainers who were training the police; the customs and the tax people as well as our own investigators. At the same time we realized we could not last in this building for very long. We had to obtain office accommodation in the building next door. We then started to plan the new DCEC headquarters and also discussed how to house our officers. We then had a call from Francistown asking for the DCEC to operate in their town. I then had to go and discuss with the Council of Francistown because they wanted the DCEC to be represented there. Then Maun became interested and later on I gather Lobatse. KURIS: I think they plan to, but they're not yet. STOCKWELL: Francistown was in my time. We opened up Francistown. I had an expatriate go up there and head it with two or three local officers. It was quite a lot of work. What was different, in Botswana, I started work at 7.30 o'clock, and left at 4:30. Nobody stayed after 4:30. . I was able to go home and once or twice a week go out on the golf course and play nine holes before it became dark. . KURIS: What were some of the other aspects of your legacy which you're very proud of? Did you think that, when you left, you had left behind a very well-functioning agency? STOCKWELL: Yes. I thought so. By the time I left I certainly considered, and so did my colleagues, that the DCEC was progressing and so did people like General Ian Khama, the deputy Attorney General Mr. Kirby et cetera. They stated so at my farewell party. They said that the DCEC was the first department that had been set up since they became independent. It was the only department that had been set up quite independent, from scratch, since independence. So basically we had set up a new department within a foreign country literally starting without a paperclip, without the knowledge of their system. We were up and going. At that time it was definitely a going concern within the society of Botswana. I was told so by the diplomatic people and by the administration and by people we met. My wife and I left after three and a half years. The government, the President, wanted us to stay. One thing I will say for Botswana there was no question about age. Age to them didn't mean anything. As far as they were concerned as long as you were fit and well you could carry on until you were 75. The only thing that prevented me from staying on was that my father was not very well. My mother had died whilst we were in Botswana and I felt I had to go home to spend some quality time with him. I am glad I did as he died the next year. . If my father had been fit and well he would have come to Botswana. Both my parents visited us in Hong Kong and loved it. Had I stayed on in Botswana a few more years, I think the DCEC would have been more firmly placed. KURIS: I will say some of the press reports from around the time that you left said that you were frustrated with some political interference. Was that true or was that just rumors? STOCKWELL: No. Not true. KURIS: So you didn't experience any kind of political interference? STOCKWELL: No, I have to say that from the point of view of support, my then President was 100%, Legwaila was 100%. The people, like the Director of Administration, they were all very supportive. They were all 100%. The only disagreement I had was in connection with the formulation of an Overview Committee of the DCEC which they refused to grant. KURIS: The citizens-. STOCKWELL: They, the Botswana Government refused to appoint an Overview Committee. I don't mean Committees, because I didn't think it was necessary to have individual committees, but I wanted, like in Hong Kong, an overview policy committee of respected local people. Now, for whatever reason, they set their face totally against it. Not from one of them could I get that support. Not from Mr. Legwaila, not from my Minister Mr. Kidikilwe or anybody. They just wouldn't hear of it. If you look at my annual reports I punched that in every time. I punched it in year after year after year. To be fair to him, so did (Tymon) Katlholo after me. But he didn't succeed either. KURIS: Were there any other disappointments, things that you were hoping to create or to do that didn't happen? STOCKWELL: No. The plans were progressing. The business of a new building, of housing for the staff. I knew that they were all going to take time anyway purely because of the culture of Africa. Not like Hong Kong, they build-. KURIS: They'll build a new city! STOCKWELL: Everything I wanted in Hong Kong happened immediately. It was quite amazing. But it didn't happen like that in Botswana. You had to accept that that was the way it was. What I will say I found in Botswana was that any subject had to be talked and talked and talked over at length but once a decision was made everybody agreed and there was then no opposition later. They all got on and dealt with it. I admire them for that. From then on, it was all systems go! Just a bit of information because it is the reason why I admire Hong Kong tremendously. Recently they have given every citizen over the age of 18 HK$6000 (£600) as a gift. KURIS: It is like a stakeholder society. That's been the idea to enable people to have freedom; that's wonderful. STOCKWELL: They have further given all OAPs a monthly allowance of HK$1000 towards buying vegetables and fruit. KURIS: Oh my God! STOCKWELL: This is tremendous. Our country (UK) set up their whole fiscal system and they have made all this money and we are broke!! I could not have been more upset with what has happened in this country. The whole situation is based on greed. We also had the business of corruption within the House of Commons. KURIS: The expenses (scandal). STOCKWELL: Yes, that really upset me. The whistleblower in Hong Kong would never have gone to the media. He would have come to me in ICAC and I hope that that would have been the same in Botswana while I was there. But here they did not go to the Commissioner of Police, they went to the (Daily) Telegraph That would have never happened years ago. They would have gone straight to Scotland Yard. That was why I was upset in Botswana. Our Operations Review Committee in Hong Kong examined every case that was accepted as corruption, anonymous or pursuable whichever, had to go before that Operations Review Committee before it was signed off. You probably saw that. So they overviewed each case and had the right to say whether an investigation was thoroughly pursued or not or should it be pursued further. Was the Attorney General and his staff correct in assessing the right charges? When it was dealt with was the court sufficiently severe in their punishment? If not, send it back to court. So that overview committee was absolutely a safeguard to everybody in Hong Kong including the investigator. I used to explain this to the various ministries right up to the President in Botswana; I mean more particularly to Legwaila because he was the Permanent Secretary and Head of the Civil Service. They just could not see it; they could not accept involvement by the citizenry in anything to do with government. KURIS: To be fair, all the commissions that I've studied also have not included this aspect. STOCKWELL: They have not? KURIS: No, I'd be interested in your opinion if you think of it. For some reason although the Hong Kong model has really disseminated around the world, the citizens review panels have not. STOCKWELL: It's government fear of citizen involvement. All I can say is it is totally inefficient in thought, it really is. I found that, not only was I keenly connected with the investigation people overviewing, but I also gave a synopsis of our investigation to the Corruption Prevention Overview Committee and to the education Overview Committee and to the ICAC policy people. They were all incredibly supportive and interested. What I thought you also gained is that you could not be incorrectly criticized by local politicians or anybody because immediately one of those interested citizens who are on those committees would reply. He would feel affronted. He would immediately come to the defense of ICAC because he would have known and thought I have seen this, so I know that these people have done a good job. I found that to be absolutely important. KURIS: That's a very interesting point. STOCKWELL: I genuinely think this country should have an Independent Commission against Corruption with all of the overview committees that Hong Kong has. A lot would be improved in the running of this country. I've written to all of the political parties but all I've received was one reply which said: " Thank you very much and your view will be taken into account". KURIS: Now, building popular support and credibility with the public is a very huge goal for commissions, it really kind of makes or breaks them I find. I hadn't thought of how citizens' overview panels can help that. Are there any other strategies that anti-corruption agencies can pursue to build credibility with the public? STOCKWELL: I think the main public relations exercise is that the commission in its various disciplines inform the press of its successes and its failures and be honest about it. Also that it keeps informed the various agencies within that country like, for instance in Hong Kong my Commissioner and I used to brief the Legislative Council and the Executive Council. Similarly in Botswana I briefed the Permanent Secretary and the President.. I didn't actually ever brief the Parliament but our, Minister Mr. Kidikilwe used to do it on behalf of the DCEC. It is up to the men in charge to keep the press informed of successes and failures and be honest about it and spread the message which means giving lots of talks to different organizations all the time and to encourage as many professional bodies onboard as possible. For instance, in Hong Kong I started what was a group of Hong Kong accountants. One of the members of our Operations Overview Committee was a young accountant, very nice young Chinese guy. He was always thinking, "What can the accountancy profession do to help the ICAC?" So I formed a group of twelve accountants with various disciplines within accountancy and they became part of the ICAC. They were agreeable to give, provided it had the sanction of the Director, to give independent advice, free, to any investigator that came to them in the area that was within their discipline. By all these methods you build up confidence in the anti-corruption organization. I would have thought that confidence in the ICAC within Hong Kong was 100% and is still 100% because they really do spread the message. We tried to spread the message in Botswana. It was only that area of the Overview Committee that the Government just wouldn't agree to. Otherwise, certainly by the time my wife and I left I thought we had set up a good organization. KURIS: As you might be aware of, after a lot of enthusiasm about Hong Kong-like anti-corruption commissions in the last '90s and early 2000's, the idea has become more controversial of late and there are a lot of critics of the idea of anti-corruption agencies. I guess there has been some disillusionment with the performance of these agencies in different countries. Was there anything that you think that this conventional wisdom is missing out on? Is there anything that is misunderstood about the value of anti-corruption agencies and how they can be effective or why? STOCKWELL: I'm certain that they can be effective, but to be effective you have to have the right caliber of personnel to head them. I'm not always certain that you can find the right sort of caliber within some of these countries to head them. My experience of consultancies for instance in Sierra Leone and Kenya, is that there were very good intentions but their ability and their dedication to the task was not always apparent. I wouldn't like to say that one should come to the United Kingdom to select the right sort of personnel as there are many other countries within the Commonwealth that are very capable in this type of work like Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, Malaysia, et cetera, et cetera. But whether or not one could get these individuals to travel abroad and head various anti-corruption agencies is another question. But, there is the expertise available throughout the Commonwealth to really set these not-so-good agencies on the right platform. The talent is there without necessarily coming all the time to Great Britain. I think it is. If you could get the Hong Kong people to travel abroad-but, you know, you have to pay them good money; they're well paid in Hong Kong. I went from Hong Kong to Botswana, because I had promised to help. I worked in Botswana at half the salary that I received in Hong Kong. Then, I was of an age that provided I had enough money, it didn't really matter. KURIS: Some of the most sustainable efforts that I have seen in these other countries have been in the prevention side of things. Do you have any advice about promoting prevention reforms, especially about-how do you get all the ministries onboard? How do you really convince people in government that it is within their interest to implement preventive reforms? STOCKWELL: I can only repeat what they've done in Hong Kong particularly with prevention and education, within, I think, all of the departments, they have had liaison officers appointed who spread the message. I'm a bit rusty now on lots of the improvements that they've done in various countries but certainly I know that within Hong Kong they have liaison officers within departments that spread the message of corruption prevention and education and of course as we did in Botswana and Hong Kong, your education has to start in the schools really to get enthusiasm amongst the school children and the university graduates to accept that corruption damages everything. Corruption and greed. It is all tied in. KURIS: Thank you very much, Mr. Stockwell. Innovations for Successful Societies Series: Anti-Corruption Oral History Program Interview number: H 1 ______________________________________________________________________ 11 Use of this transcript is governed by ISS Terms of Use, available at www.princeton.edu/successfulsocieties