An initiative of the National Academy of Public Administration, and the Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs and the Bobst Center for Peace and Justice, Princeton University Oral History Program Series: Civil Service Interview no.: N15 Interviewee: Eliam Tangirongo Interviewer: David Hausman Date of Interview: 8 September 2009 Location: Public Service Commission Honiara Solomon Islands Innovations for Successful Societies, Bobst Center for Peace and Justice Princeton University, 83 Prospect Avenue, Princeton, New Jersey, 08544, USA www.princeton.edu/successfulsocieties HAUSMAN: This is David Hausman and it is September 8, 2009. I'm here with Eliam Tangirongo, the chairman of the Public Service Commission in Solomon Islands. Mr. Tangirongo, have you consented to be recorded for this interview? TANGIRONGO: Yes, I have. HAUSMAN: Great. I'd like to start by asking you a bit about your own background and how you came to be public service commissioner here. TANGIRONGO: Right. I am a retired public officer. I sat in the Solomon Islands public service for thirty years. I left the public service in 2006. From 2006 until September last year, 2008, I was not employed, but I worked with the Landowners Association, which has 20% shareholding in one of the major investments here in Solomon Islands, the Guadalcanal Plains Palm Oil Limited. This is a project, a business that involved a number of tribes of landowners who leased land to an investor, and the land in question belongs to the member tribes. Prior to 2005 when this new venture was entered into, the palm oil plantations were run by Commonwealth Development Corporation, a partnership with the Solomon Islands government. Because of the ethnic tension-or the social unrest, as it was called between 1999 and 2001-the investor left. So New Britain Palm Oil, a company from Papua New Guinea, came over and took over after a lot of discussions with the government, the national government, the provincial government and the landowners. After about six months' negotiation we came up with a new venture. So after the negotiation and entering into this business partnership with New Britain Palm Oil and Guadalcanal Plains Palm Oil Limited, I am the director on behalf of the landowners for their 20% shareholding. We have a Landowners Association which has representatives from the landowning group, and we work with a company to make sure that landowner problems and payments and things are done properly, professionally. It is quite a good setup. With the palm oil production now, the landowners, depending on the size of the land, the number of hectares that they lease to the land, which is about $100 per hectare, and based on production, get a fairly good return for their 20% share in investment. So I have enjoyed that. Last year I was approached to be an ordinary member of the Public Service Commission, which I accepted. I could take that on with my responsibilities for the landowners. So in September last year I joined the Public Service Commission as a commissioner. Then July this year, when the former chairman's term came to an end, I was appointed as chairman. So that's how I came on board. My background is, during the public service-the last 10 years of my working life in the public service, four years as Permanent Secretary. That basically is chief executive officer of the government department. HAUSMAN: In which department? TANGIRONGO: Several departments, we get posted around; but I served in Ministry of Lands as permanent secretary, Ministry of Health and Ministry of Women and Youth and Sports. Before that I was deputy secretary of foreign affairs and eight years in the Prime Minister's Office, basically, within the public service department. So that's my background. Before coming into the Prime Minister's Office, I served in a number of provinces as provincial-seconded to provincial governments by the Solomon Islands public service. So that's basically my background. HAUSMAN: Thanks. I wonder if you could describe the Public Service Commission, its structure and the history of how it was established? TANGIRONGO: The Public Service Commission is one of the bodies that was established by the Solomon Islands Constitution. So its powers were spelled out or vested in the Solomon Islands Constitution. It has powers to recruit, to be responsible for the public service in career development. So that includes training, promotions, broadly making sure that the public service is operational and that it is delivering the services that the Solomon Islands government has in place for its budgets, to its people. It is also responsible for discipline, for postings; makes sure that different cadres or professions within the public service have proper schemes of service; makes sure that it recognizes the differences between the different professions or different specialties within the machinery of government that provides service to, or implements or executes the services that the government wants to deliver to the people of the Solomon Islands. There is a two-tier level. There is the national public service; then there are the provincial governments. So we also appoint officers who are seconded to the provincial governments. It is always a body that ensures that public officers or those who join the civil service are properly looked after, ensures that they have career prospects, makes sure that they have the necessary training. Above all, in all these responsibilities, it ensures that in return the people get the services delivered to them. So that's the role of the Public Service Commission. HAUSMAN: Has it undergone any major changes recently? TANGIRONGO: Yes. I mentioned the social unrest of '99 to 2000. That brought a lot of disturbance, or shall we say, collapsed the public service and basically the services that the government provided in the Solomon Islands too. Many people left their jobs because the social unrest, as it was, was-shall we say, it was a conflict between two island groups, between Guadalcanal and Malaita. And Malaita is the most populous island in Solomon Islands. There are many public offices on Malaita. Guadalcanal is one of the biggest islands, with the capital city [Honiara], and most of the major developments in Solomon Islands occur in Honiara or on the island of Guadalcanal. I mentioned the Palm Oil Development. There was also the only gold mine: the only mining industry in Solomon Islands, a gold mine, was left. An investor has come back, but has not yet begun proper operations. They're trying to set up. So the whole public service was affected in a way. The economy also collapsed. So when people came back, it was no longer the same public service as before. People left their jobs. They had to review the system. So in 2003 we had the RAMSI. RAMSI stands for Regional Assistance Mission for the Solomon Islands. It is made up of Australia, New Zealand, and our South Pacific island nation friends. Their mission to the Solomon Islands has gone from restoring peace and law and order and has come a big way into helping the government with its machinery of government. That includes the public service. There is a program under RAMSI called the Public Service Improvement Program. That is the one that I am chairman of, and I'm very keen to make sure that we make the most use of it and we benefit from the assistance of RAMSI. We have consultants, we have advisors under the program who are involved in the Public Service Improvement Program, trying to make the systems work, looking at the job descriptions, looking at human resources. That's one of the terms that was not very popular in Solomon Islands before, but now it is the word. It is coming up under the reform program, and the Public Service Improvement Program is always the word that is in the mind of the commission, within the permanent secretaries and the departments. We would like to make sure that the human resources are developed, that they have the capacity and the ability, they have the proper training, they have acquired the skills. Not only that, but that they have the other resources, like they have the proper offices, they have the logistics, they have everything that they need to perform as public officers. I welcome the Public Service Improvement Program that RAMSI is undertaking within our government. HAUSMAN: How has that program directly affected the commission? TANGIRONGO: The systems, or shall we say the cadres, of the public service is being overseen centrally by the Public Service Commission, the chairman and Secretariat of the Public Service Commission. In some of the working groups, they call it a coordinating committee. Then they have the management, the Program Management Group. So we are involved, looking at the consultants and advisors having determined the levels within the system, the public service, that we needed improvement or building capacity on have involved the chairman. Upon taking over as chairman of the Public Service Commission in July, I have become a member of the working groups that are looking at the program in detail and making sure that it is going down to the ministries or the departments as we would like to. Because any reform or any improvement, as previous experience has shown, that is only talked about or being discussed only within the public service division or department or the ministry responsible for public service overall, it will not go down unless it involves the chief executive officers, it involves the under secretaries, it involves the senior officers of its department, having an input into the improvements or the developments that we would like to see in the public service. So it is basically an encompassing thing within the public service organization as a whole, because we recognize that, to get the most out of it, we need to involve the participation of all personnel within the different departments in the Solomon Islands government public service. HAUSMAN: Let me ask you a couple of more questions about the commission itself. How many members does it have, and how long do they serve? TANGIRONGO: We have a chairman, and there should be four other members. At the moment we have two members, and we are waiting for the appointment of two more. So any meeting of the commission has to be the chairman plus two members; there has got to be three. There will be no meeting if it is less than three. Gender-wise, we are all right. The two members now are both female, and we are waiting for the appointment of two more members. HAUSMAN: How long do they serve? TANGIRONGO: They serve for three years. Commissioners serve for three years and then they can be reappointed. HAUSMAN: How are they appointed? TANGIRONGO: They are appointed by the governor-general. If you remember, I said that the Public Service Commission is entrenched within the Solomon Islands Constitution. So the appointments are made by the governor-general who is the head of the state on the recommendation of the Prime Minister's Office and Department of Public Service. So they select the candidates. I think it goes through caucus and the cabinet, and then they select which name they would like to appoint. Once they agree on a candidate, they send the name to Government House, the governor-general and the governor-general makes the appointment. HAUSMAN: Is it the same process for the chair? TANGIRONGO: It is also the same process for the chair, correct. HAUSMAN: The independence of the Public Service Commission is often an important and difficult aspect of Public Service Commissions worldwide. In your view, how effectively is the independence of the commission protected here, or are there ways to influence the selection and promotion of civil servants? TANGIRONGO: It is protected. The independence is clearly spelled out in the constitution. It has been the subject of debate in some cases, but I think over the years it has just proved itself. I can say that with confidence. For example, during the period when there was political instability, this would be usually the time when these issues came up. But from experience, the eight or 10 years that I was in the public service, it has been well protected. Of course we do have these exchanges between the head of government, say a prime minister or deputy prime minister, and the chairman of the Public Service Commission. Because of the independence guaranteed under the constitution, the chairman and the commission have always gone to the other arm of government, which is the judicial arm of government, the courts, to the attorney general for his advice. Where independent advice, other than from the attorney general-you can have a conflict there because the attorney general also advises the government. He is basically the legal advisor to the government and all departments, including the Public Service Commission. But because of our independence guaranteed under the constitution, the Public Service Commission can also seek legal advice from sources other than the attorney general, and that has been used before. It has been clear. Yes, pressure has been applied, and when that kind of pressure is applied, that's when advice other than attorney general's office is sought. HAUSMAN: Can you give any examples of that? TANGIRONGO: Examples of that would have been as in the case of the last attorney general, former Attorney General Julian Moti; that was the source of conflict or tension between the political arm of the government and the Public Service Commission. The thing resolved itself when there was a change of government, and it didn't have to go to court because, that would have been the ultimate. HAUSMAN: What was the exact nature of the tension? TANGIRONGO: So the attorney general is also appointed. The appointment of attorney general should come before the Public Service Commission. When it is directed, for example, by the government and the Public Service Commission is under pressure, this thing has become a public debate. That was a special case, with just about everybody in the Solomon Islands wanting to see what the outcome of this will be, because this former attorney general was charged for some case in Vanuatu. It has not resolved, so it was a very interesting thing. There also were differences of opinion even between governments, whether he was already cleared by the Vanuatu courts. This is the cause of the impasse. With that kind of situation, the Public Service Commission has got to be very careful, because it does prescribe what kind of people can be appointed to public service posts. With that kind of controversy surrounding the attorney general candidate at that time, it was difficult for the commission to get advice. Well, it got advice from someone who is acting attorney general, and you'd expect that must be in favor of the government, and the commission wanted independent advice, so it had to go for independent advice. Anyway, they had their say, and the government decided to appoint Mr. Moti as attorney general. The commission differed in opinion, but the government had its way by going direct to the governor-general who is the head of the state and made the appointment and swore him in. But when there was a change of government, the whole thing subsided. HAUSMAN: Let me ask you a couple of questions about professionalization and merit. Could you describe the procedures and standards used in the system of recruitment in the civil service, and is this any different from the way it used to be done? TANGIRONGO: I think about the same as it was before this program, but we are improving on it. For example, we are designing new forms. Other things have come in. But the cadres prescribe what level or what entry point-a scheme of service determines, within the scheme of service-within a cadre, for example, the profession is prescribed with what qualifications you enter at a certain level or pay point on appointment. I'll give you an example. For engineers, currently that has not been reviewed for the last-I don't know, for as long as I know, the engineering cadre or scheme or service. So they should be appointed at level six, those who qualify with an engineering degree from the University of Papua New Guinea or other Australian or New Zealand university. With a first degree, you get appointed at level six. A first appointment is on probation for one year. After you get confirmed for one year, then if your work is good, you get promoted to the next level, seven, eight, and then progress up the ladder. Some cadres have developed because of the numbers and the pressure they apply. For example, the nursing scheme of service and the doctors' scheme of service: if you see the contrast between engineers and doctors, now doctors get appointed at level 10 with a first degree as a doctor and having passed their interns, or they get registered. Or take the lawyers, for example. Lawyers can get appointed at level-I think it is seven with a first degree. When they successfully complete their trial promotion, they can then progress or get promoted or advanced to the next level. Those who get certificates from a college, like for example the local college, the SICHE [Solomon Islands College of Higher Education] here in Solomon Islands, they get appointed at level five with a diploma. For certificates, it's at level four. For a diploma from SICHE or any other institution outside of Solomon Islands. it is level five for diplomas. With degrees, it is level six, level seven. Then there is the merit application. For example, if posts are vacant and the ministry or the department wants to fill the post, then they advertise the post. Then there is open competition. So for example, you get a post advertised for level eight or level nine: if an officer is already confirmed at level six or level seven, or even if he is not confirmed, he can apply. It depends on everyone else who applies and how the interviewing panel sees all the candidates. If from among the candidates, the best candidate is a level six, for example, but this is a level eight or level 10 position, they can recommend that person. HAUSMAN: Are all posts advertised? TANGIRONGO: That's the rule, that all posts are advertised. HAUSMAN: Is there a civil service exam or are there tests used in recruitment? TANGIRONGO: No. They used to have that before I joined the public service in 1979 or 1980. One has to pass certain tests before progressing in your career. That's why many people in those days-for example, in the general administration cadre, many of the officers who progressed to executive officer or senior executive officer were qualified magistrates, because they tailored examinations then for administrators to be able to. If they're posted out in the provinces, or in the local councils, as they were called then, they could sit in as magistrates and hear cases in their capacity of magistrate. But they are also administrators of the government. HAUSMAN: So how exactly does the application and selection process work for civil servants, step by step? TANGIRONGO: The cadres would prescribe the level of the post and the job description. Recruitment is by application to the post, and they have local qualifications. For example, if it is a level three, level four post, and you have a certificate-or even a form seven or form six, that is also prescribed within the scheme of service for that particular cadre. If it doesn't require a college certificate or diploma or university degree, then it is prescribed. As officers get appointed, and they are within a job for a certain time, they get an annual appraisal system. It is a system of reporting where each year the public service office issues instructions to the departments to ensure that all offices-all this is written down in the general orders, the general orders governance. It is the rulebook of the public service. It sets out the levels, the job descriptions, the terms and the conditions, just about everything. It states the condition and the requirements within the public service, within the general orders. After recruitment, and the officer is at post, a biannual confidential report is sent out. If they get confirmed in their appointment, they're assessed on how they perform. Normally the job description is filled out by the officer himself, then the supervisor reports on him. His immediate supervisor reports on him, ticks him off on performance and on timekeeping, on relationship with others, on his behavior and his attitude toward work. All these things are in that form. The supervising officer, the immediate supervisor, completes the form, and he sends it to someone above him, and he acts as first countersigning officer. The report is correct, I would agree with that. Normally they are within the same department. He agrees or disagrees with it, and then he sends it to the head of the department. Once the head of the department has a look at it, it is sent here. So then where there are assessments for promotion or interviews, these forms are called up at the ministry level or they are sent to the public service. The public service in submitting for recommendation for promotion or in response to recommendation by an interview panel, sends the reports, including the appraisal forms which are called Annual Confidential Reports, to the Public Service Commission for reviewing when looking at recommendations for promotion or new appointment at a higher level. HAUSMAN: When you get those reports, what do you do next? TANGIRONGO: When we get those reports, if it is open promotion, we verify the report with what the interviewing panel, or the panel that does these reports-. If it is a report detailing a recommendation of a department to promote someone to a higher post, and comes through the public service, they check it against the requirements within the cadre, within general orders. Having satisfied all the conditions, it is passed to the commission. The commission views the reports, and if it is satisfied it is fitted for promotion. The Public Service Commission is the final checkpoint of all the rules and regulations that are established in the general orders. Then there is also, in addition to general orders, the Public Service Commission Regulations. That is the regulation from which the requirements are ticked off. You can ask the Secretariat to give you a copy of that. HAUSMAN: Great, thank you. Are these procedures always followed in practice, or are there some informal processes at work as well? TANGIRONGO: In practice, this is strictly followed, because if the Public Service Commission finds out that someone is drawing pay or salaries without Public Service Commission appointment it is illegal. HAUSMAN: What do you do with that information? Do you refer to-? TANGIRONGO: If a report comes before the commission that someone is held in a position or is appointed to a position and working in a position without proper appointment, the commission can intervene. They can say, the Commission Secretariat advises the public service to request why that has happened. If it is somebody deliberately going against the processes, it calls for discipline or disciplinary action. It is a fairly stringent procedure, but it is also very, very clear, because the two books that I mentioned, the General Orders and the Public Service Commission Regulations, actually spell out exactly what responsible officers within a department can do or what they cannot do. The compliance with General Orders and the Public Service Commission Regulations makes sure that things are in place. Noncompliance erodes the whole process. Sometimes they do happen. General Orders and Public Service Regulations now have a new thing called the Code of Ethics. Under this Public Service Improvement Program that RAMSI is assisting us to build, we are trying to harmonize or improve the manuals or the procedures as they are established in the General Orders and in the Public Service Commission Regulations. In 1998, we had for the first time the Public Service Act. So we are hoping to improve the Public Service Act by making available in there what the constitution says about the Public Service Commission's powers and the public service in general. So we are hoping-not hoping, but with the work of the Public Service Improvement Program we are looking forward to improving this manual so that there is a better understanding, and with a better understanding there is an adherence and compliance with the systems and procedures. Not only that, but we are improving those cadres that have not had a review over the last 10 or 20 years. I mentioned the example of the engineers. We had difficulty appointing someone on a first appointment, qualifying with a first degree to a level 11, level 12, which is executive level, senior management level. Luckily, engineers who qualify from Papua New Guinea or other institutions, sometimes when they come back they don't immediately join the government, but they join private companies or engineering firms and contractors. So they get one or two years' experience. Even if it is a first appointment in the public service, he has already worked for one or two years in the private sector, and he has got a letter of recommendation or a reference to say "Yes, he has worked in our company or our contracting firm with projects," and they specify the projects, and we see the job description and it will fit him, we can give exemption to that as the Public Service Commission and get them appointed, instead of six, at level eight or level nine. So there is a call for flexibility as the commission sees and makes its judgment on special cases. But the guidelines are fairly clear. HAUSMAN: What criteria are used in promotions? What weighting is given to seniority, education, skills, or performance evaluations? TANGIRONGO: All those come into play: seniority, performance, and qualifications. These are the areas that we are looking at improving greatly by our reporting system, and also having information, updated information about individual public officers under different ministries. So these are the things, shall we say in the last two months, that I have attended program management when in the Public Service Improvement Program. We are seriously looking at this. HAUSMAN: Can you describe how you keep records of the commission in general? Do you keep a file for each civil servant? TANGIRONGO: Yes, that's the rule. In our time, we have two files. There is a blue file: that is the working file for salaries and general correspondences about an officer. Then we have a red file or a confidential file: that's where the annual confidential reports are kept. These are restricted files, and in the ministries or the departments, the permanent secretary or senior officer, chief administration officer-level and up, can have a look. But the keys are normally kept with the permanent secretary. When cases come before the commission for discipline or for promotion, normally both those files would be-or the red file in particular would be brought up. Since the Public Service Improvement Program, some new forms have been devised. There have been some changes in the last two or three years, but we are hoping we can improve even on those. HAUSMAN: What have those changes been? TANGIRONGO: Those changes have been to have further recruitment and qualification and how long they have had work, slightly different from the old forms. They also have those changes for forms, in particular for advertisement of vacant positions. If you require the kind of forms that we use in addition to the Public Service Commission Regulations, we can ask the Secretariat to make those available to you, so you will see forms that are used for recruitment, for assessment of performance. HAUSMAN: Thank you so much. You mentioned further that you take part, as part of the Public Service Improvement Program, in a Program Management Group and Coordinating Committee. Can you describe those groups further, and what they do and how they do it? TANGIRONGO: Before, when I joined the Public Service Commission last year, I was nominated to be a member of the Coordinating Committee. In there we had a look at the mission statement, or the vision for a new public service. So that is something we didn't have before. That has been developed by this particular group here, the Coordinating Committee. HAUSMAN: Is that part of the Public Service Improvement Program? TANGIRONGO: That is part of the Public Service Improvement Program. We have completed that with the help of an advisor, the vision and the mission statement, and that has been passed on to the minister, and I think the minister has taken it to cabinet and they have approved it at cabinet level. It has been mentioned in Parliament. From that initial group, the coordinating committee has tasked the undersecretaries, another group, to actually look at the mechanisms within the public service in general, in particular interest at the human resource aspect of it. So in this Public Service Improvement Program, the human resource is the word that is being stressed. That is the one that we are looking at. Before, we used to have from permanent secretary to undersecretary and then a chief. The changes are likely to come in having a human resource manager in each department who basically looks at the human resource development within a department and makes sure that things are up to standard and going as expected. With the Program Management Group, it is at the level where, with the Coordinating Committee and others that are looking at these things, they send the reports to the Program Management Group, and the Program Management Group approves or makes other changes finally for recommendations to the minister. So there is a lot of work in the Public Service Improvement Program going on at the same time. Overall, it comes with the machinery of government project under RAMSI. So that is coordinated under the RAMSI office. These advisors and consultants are provided to us under the RAMSI umbrella of machinery of government. HAUSMAN: I wonder if you could say a little bit more about the work with RAMSI and your relationship with RAMSI. How has that developed and how has it been? TANGIRONGO: I would say it is something I value, because even prior to the social unrest or the ethnic tension, people complained about the public service. There have been a number of reviews. They complain about the size of the public service. They are concerned about performance, about the attitudes of officers, about the output of the public service. That was a very general picture of a public service that was really in need of updating and upgrading. It is not only the politicians who call for it, but the general public too. Public servants would sometimes say people don't understand what goes on, but with the social unrest it was obvious what had happened. The public service basically declined. A decline is non-understanding of procedures. What we call a culture within the public service or culture within the private sector or business or company, doesn't exist in the public service. Standards have gone lower. In some cases, people deplore it. With the assistance RAMSI has given us, with this partnership, there is, shall I say, a green light at the end of a tunnel for improvement, for upgrading, for advancement of the public service. People see only one aspect, one or two, maybe a few, but not all the aspects of the decline within the public service. This program is looking at it holistically. It is not only looking at qualifications and experience, it is also looking at things that make a public office work. So we are looking at equipment, we are looking at resources. You can have well-qualified people, but if you don't provide them with the tools it will not work. Even things like power and water, they do come into play. If we have qualified, efficient officers but there is no power for them to use the equipment, that obviously is a problem. We also look at how we look after them outside of public service hours. What kinds of conditions do they have at home? Are they properly housed? Are their children attending schools properly? We'll look after it. So if you scrutinize the public service just purely on performance and you don't look at the underlying issues, then you're only looking at the surface. So with this program which aims to look at-take for example the police force, or even the general public officers, they're not properly housed. They come in the office, and all they do is they talk about their problems and looking at ways to better their conditions. They may be looking at something from outside of the public service. But if they're well looked after and their welfare is taken care of, then you can be assured that public officers will perform. I mean I'll be happy working if I'm OK at home; if I'm well looked after by the service, they provide for me all the things that I need to do for my work, I'm comfortable at home. My family is not annoying me with the state of the house and the kind of services that we get from transport or other things, then I have less worries and I'll be doing my best. But if in addition to a difficult working environment-there is no equipment, the equipment is out of date, there's no power-I'm coming from a home where I'm also as the head of the house the target of the wife and the children complaining about conditions in the home, then I'm not a very happy public officer. HAUSMAN: Thanks. One last question for you which is, if you were giving advice to someone in a similar position in another country, what lessons might you draw from your experience here? TANGIRONGO: It would be interesting what lessons other, say for example regional countries within the Pacific, can learn from Solomon Islands or what we can learn from them. In this sense, I'm looking forward to the Heads of Public Service Conference which is organized with the assistance of Australia, New Zealand, and our other development partners. It is an annual conference for heads of public service including public service commissioners. I think we are learning from each other. Some of the changes that we are looking forward to having have already happened in other countries. For example, they've reviewed their regulations. They have looked at the legislation that provides for the public service. They have looked at performance appraisals. So the different levels that countries have taken on, changes or advancements within the Public Service Commission-I think we all have something to learn from each other within the Pacific region. Broadly speaking, we are looking at getting to a level where the public service is efficient and it is delivering that service to the people. Which is free of corruption-that's another big word. That's one problem everywhere: corruption within the within the public service, corruption within the private sector, within the politics of a nation. So we have a lot to learn. It would be difficult for me to say that we have settled on what adjustments, what improvements we would like to take. I would like to put it this way: only we know what the problems are within the Solomon Islands public service. It is important that we identify those problems, find the ways and the means and the strategies to overcome those problems, and move on. Because I believe that public service, like any other business, is evolving all the time. It is moving forward. It can never be static. So we should always be looking for ways to improve our situation. For us in the Solomon Islands, the social unrest or the ethnic tension really brought us to our lowest point within the public service, and we are vying for these reforms to get us up to a level where maybe we had been before, and better than that: to go from there and move up further. HAUSMAN: Well, thank you so much. Innovations for Successful Societies Series: Civil service Oral History Program Interview number: N-15 ______________________________________________________________________ 11 Use of this transcript is governed by ISS Terms of Use, available at www.princeton.edu/successfulsocieties Use of this transcript is governed by ISS Terms of Use, available at www.princeton.edu/successfulsocieties