An initiative of the National Academy of Public Administration, and the Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs and the Bobst Center for Peace and Justice, Princeton University Oral History Program Series: Civil Service Interview no.: E3 Interviewee: Japhet N. Hasunga Interviewer: Andrew Schalkwyk Date of Interview: 24 November 2008 Location: Tanzania Public Service College Dar es Salaam Tanzania Innovations for Successful Societies, Bobst Center for Peace and Justice Princeton University, 83 Prospect Avenue, Princeton, New Jersey, 08544, USA www.princeton.edu/successfulsocieties SCHALKWYK: Today Is the 24th of November, 2008. I'm here with Japhet Hasunga - the Director and Deputy Principal of the Tanzania Public Service College. Before we start, I'd just like to ask that you've given your consent for the interview? HASUNGA: Yes. SCHALKWYK: All right, now before I start talking to you about public service reform in Tanzania I wonder if you could tell me about your current position and how you came to be where you are today? HASUNGA: My current position is the Deputy Principal, planning, finance, and administration. The position to which I have been elevated from March this year. Prior to this position I was the Director of Finance and Administration, the position in which I worked for about five years. But, initially when I joined here with this college, it was on the first of January 2003. Before joining this college I was working -- I was working for National Social Security Fund, NSSF where I worked more than six years. Yes. SCHALKWYK: But, I wonder if you could tell me briefly about the Public Service College? When was it founded? HASUNGA: Tanzania Public Service College which normally in abbreviation we call it TPSC, it was formed in August 2000, under the Executive Agencies Act of 1997. And, this one -- Tanzania Public Service College is a unification of two old institutions. The one which we used to call Civil Service Training Center based here in Dar es Salaam, and the Tabora Secretarial College which was based in Tabora. So, now these two colleges were merged together to form one institution, which is called the Tanzania Public Service College, and this one was formed to be part-and-parcel of the institution which has to support the Public Service Reform Program, PSRP1. The reason for forming this institution, it was just to have an institution which would help to oversee the training functions in the public service. That is briefly what is the role of the Tanzania Public Service College. SCHALKWYK: How large is the college, how many teachers and how many students does it have? HASUNGA: The college -- we have 96 staff in total. And out of that we have about 55 faculty members and administrators, and the rest are supporting staff. In terms of enrollment we have two types of courses here, two types of programs. We have short term courses, and we have long term courses. In long term courses the total enrollment in both of the two campuses, that is the Dar es Salaam campus and the Tabora campus, in total we have 2,350 - 2,360, that is long term programs, because we offer these long term programs which I will explain later the type of courses which we offer. And then, in short courses, those courses which have design to support the Public Service Reform Program to build the capacity within the public service, so now in those programs the participants, for the time being, the number has gone up to approximately 4,000 per year. Yes. SCHALKWYK: OK, and how long are those short-term courses normally? HASUNGA: The short-term courses, they range from one day up to a maximum of three weeks. So it depends but, on average it's normally one week and two weeks. One week program, so a five day program, two weeks programs, something like that. SCHALKWYK: And do people normally come to the college to do those trainings or do you travel to their offices? HASUNGA: As I said, we had those two types of programs. The long-term programs - people have to come here and study. They come here, they go to Tabora, so that they stay with us for one year, one and a half years, two years. So after finishing they go back. In the short courses, normally very few people come here, but most of the courses we are conducting in hotels or in some other venues which are appropriated to our participants, so normally we do try different areas when conducting these short courses. SCHALKWYK: OK, how do you -- how do you choose which courses to offer on a short-term basis? HASUNGA: On short term -- on short-term courses, the way we design them we have two or three types of these courses. The first one we call "tailor-made short course." Now, if it is a tailor made, that one we are designing in line with the client's expectations, what do they want? So, the client would have to conduct us and tell us that, "We have so many number of our staff, we want them to be trained in this area." Maybe in financial management, maybe in customer care, maybe in management, maybe in leadership, whatever type of skills which are lacking in that organization so we can just prepare that course, tailor-- tailoring it to the needs of that organization specifically, so that is what we call Tailor-made Program. And then we have got another one which normally is what we call the "Supply-driven" courses. That, the courses which we design ourselves, from our experiences that for example maybe we see that the government maybe needs to move in this area, so now many people are not having capacity in these area, so we decide not to develop the courses in line with what we think is appropriate. That is what we call "supply-driven" courses. But, the last one, which is very important, is what we call "demand-driven" courses. These demand-driven courses, normally we design them after we have conducted a training assessment in the organizations, so now we have to undertake training assessment, identifying the gaps which are lacking in those organizations, and then from there we develop now appropriate training programs in addressing the gaps which are lacking in that organization. So, that is what we called demand-driven courses. SCHALKWYK: So, the Public Service College is responsible for identifying gaps in the public service? HASUNGA: Yes. SCHALKWYK: Who's involved in those -- in those assessments? HASUNGA: Here -- I have not explained the functions of the college, but basically it's to impart skills and knowledge into the public servants in this country. Now, people who are involved in identifying the gaps are the trainers. World experienced trainers we have employed from different sectors. We normally advertise the positions, and sometimes the government is helping us to bring the experienced people who come just to the source in our programs. But also, we draw some trainers from the public servants that you have, that you find some of the people are well experienced that are working in a certain department, in a certain industry, we do engage them on a temporary basis so they can help the college to identify their training needs assessment in some areas. We contract to them, they do the job, after finishing the job they go back to their original positions or organizations to work for. So, normally they are the trainers who are developing the training needs assessment. SCHALKWYK: And how often do you -- HASUNGA: But, of course we have to work together with our clients. SCHALKWYK: How often do you do the training needs assessment? HASUNGA: Normally -- normally it depends on the availability of funds. Sometimes we have the problem which normally constrains most of us. So, you find normally we'll do after one year -- after one year we can do training needs assessment, and sometimes we do training needs assessment after we have been contacted by the MDAs those ministries and departments and agencies when they need it to be done, normally they contact us and then we can decide what to do. But, normally about once per year, and normally we don't cover all the ministries. Sometimes we can just sample maybe five ministries, and we undertake training needs assessment, and then we draw a conclusion that most of the ministries are missing this and this, so we are operating it on a sample basis. SCHALKWYK: And how do you do the training needs assessment? Do you interview people in the ministries or do you do other... What are the methods of doing the training needs assessment? HASUNGA: The method of which we are using to -- to undertake training needs assessment, normally it's a combination of interviews, questionnaires, and sometimes -- sometimes we've go to -- we contacted some of the -- what we call OPRAS forms, and those are Open Performance Review and Appraisal Systems which you find now those staff have already filled them, which they indicate the gaps which are lacking in their performances, so normally we identify that one, and then combined with the questionnaires and interviews we finish. SCHALKWYK: All right, and would you say the tailored -- for the tailored courses you tailor them to the client's needs, who are those clients? HASUNGA: Our clients -- our clients, as a public college, mainly it's the government and its agencies so we have the Ministries, all the Ministries in Tanzania, we have independent departments of the governments, and then we have agencies of the government. These are the main -- the main clients. But also, we do conduct some training for the private sector. So now, the private sector sometimes they do contact us. When they contact us, we design the courses in line with their requirement also. So, those are our clients. SCHALKWYK: And then do Ministries have -- do MDAs have funds with which they pay you for these tailored courses? HASUNGA: Yes, normally we do charge them a small amount of fee which they have to pay for us so that we meet this fixed cause and some other variables, so that's why they have to provide the funding, and that's why you find sometimes we are not achieving what we are supposed to achieve because we find most of the MDAs they are lacking funding. We find some of the training budgets are too small, so that's why sometimes you find if we want to maybe undertake a training needs assessment, they say, "OK, fine we wanted it to be done, but currently we don't have the funding." So, that one it has been actually affecting our performance, but they have to pay. SCHALKWYK: Do you test the outcome of the training programs that you do? HASUNGA: Yes, we do. We do test by conducting evaluations. We have -- normally three or four levels of training evaluations. There are first level, second level, third level, fourth level. The first level is where we are -- we are evaluating the reactions of the participants to the course after we have -- we are doing the course every day, and normally we do evaluate that one so that we see the way they respond. If they are happy, if they are not happy, and if they have been interested with the course, the way it has been conducted, and that's the first one evaluation we do. We normally do every day. And after we finish that training we do the second level which is what we call training and that is the amount of learning. So, now we have to evaluate all the topics which we have covered, the way we have structured the program, the way it has been done, and the amount of knowledge which these people have gained after they finish the training so that we can compare with the previous gap and see if at all they have patted up with something or not. That is the second level. The third level normally we are not conducting it always, it happens very rarely, and that's because it requires a lot of funding, and you find these MDAs they're not having. Now, it is where you have to conduct evaluation after six months or one year to see the impact of that training to the people. To see the delivery, if they have improved. To see if they have changed their behavior, to see if they have changed their attitudes. Now, if we find, for example -- normally, we do conduct it very, very rarely in this instance that we are not having funding -- so that is where you see if the individual, if his performance has changed, if his behavior has changed, if he has improved in delivering their services, methodology and other capacities. And then, at the same time, we move to level four which is evaluating the contribution of that training program to the organization now. To the organization, where if it is a profit organization, we have to check the return on investment, we have to check the profit. Now, if you trained somebody has he contributed something to the bottom line of the organization? That is the balance sheet, the income statement there, something has it come? But, now, this one being the staff college, now we are not doing business. The administrators are not doing business, they're providing services so we see, now if that training has helped now to motivating people to perform, and if they have performed, have the services been improved? Have we solved the existing problems in the ministries? And if they haven't been solved, why? Did the training help to reduce maybe staff turnover and other things? So, we observe so many factors there which we have to take in in a level four evaluation. But, normally, I'll say it again, level three and level four which happens very rarely because of the cost involved, and you find the MDAs are not having the ability to fund in it. It happens sometimes our ministry of public service -- public service management which has been conducting evaluation of some of the courses -- some selected courses to see the impact of the people as a requirement of the World Bank and it has been done fairly well. SCHALKWYK: OK, your longer term classes, who are those mainly for? HASUNGA: What? SCHALKWYK: Who are the longer-term classes for? What level of public servant is enrolled in the college? HASUNGA: Here, the long term courses we have a certificate, which is one year, and we have a diploma, which is two years. We have a certificate in Secretarial Studies, you have a certificate in Public Administration, we have a certificate in Records Management, and we have a certificate in Computer Studies. And then, we have a diploma in Secretarial Studies, we have a diploma in Records Management, we have a diploma in Computer Studies, and we have a diploma in Human Resources. So, now, these ones are catering for all stuff, particularly in the junior levels. In the junior levels in the sense that you find, because we are not offering degrees, so normally we offer these services which normally we call supporting services in the ministries like secretarial. They need secretaries who are competent, who can deliver, who can perform in the organization, who can manage the office, so those are the people who are always coming here to study. We have those who are waiting in the registries, in records, managing the records in the organizations. So, those who are in the junior levels, they normally come here to get those training. So, for the case of middle and the senior people they're not coming here for long courses, they are coming here for only short courses. SCHALKWYK: And who pays for those courses-- the long-term courses? HASUNGA: They are sponsored. SCHALKWYK: They are sponsored. HASUNGA: There are sponsors, including the Ministries, the organizations, yes. SCHALKWYK: OK. What is your involve-- what is your relationship with donors like the World Bank or other countries? HASUNGA: Our relationship? SCHALKWYK: Yeah, do they provide trainers, do they provide funding? HASUNGA: Yes, they -- because TPSC was formed as in integral part of the Public Service Reform Program, so developing partners they have been supporting the Public Service Reform Program and we are part of that one. So, when they contributed to the basket finding sentence we also took gain because they do support us in the re-tooling, like, bringing tools for providing the training like computers and other things, and sometimes rehabilitating our buildings, so normally they do support us. But, in addition to that, they do support it through basket funding by building the capacity -- capacity of our trainers. So, they do provide some training, and sometimes they do find some scholarship for exchanging programs. So, we take our staff to some other countries, they go there, they stay maybe two weeks, they get some knowledge, they come back, and then they try to compare with what we are doing here. So, normally we are corroborating with them. SCHALKWYK: And which countries do they normally go to? HASUNGA: We -- we have been going to South Africa. It happens sometimes we took some people to UK, and Singapore, and Malaysia. These are the countries which we have been corroborating, yes. But, World Bank is supporting us very much in terms of contributing the basket funding, and when we -- we budget we also take a small amount from that one, from the basket fund. SCHALKWYK: What language do you typically do your training in? HASUNGA: Here is English; we use English in the training. Normally use English, yes. SCHALKWYK: And what relationship do you have with other -- with Universities? HASUNGA: Here, if I take the history of the Tanzania Public Service College, this one when it was formed in the year 2000 it was expected to do the functions, which were being done by what we used to call the Institute of Development Management IDM, is now a full-fledged university. That one was called a staff college, and this one is supposed to -- supposed to transform itself to become a staff college. But, now realizing that a staff college cannot have enough capacity. So now, the government said we have to collaborate with some other local institutions, like the Institute of Public Administration of Umzumbi, Institute of Public Administration of University of Dar es Salaam and some other private consultants like Price Waterhouse help us in other areas where we can team up and work together. So, normally we do collaborate with them, but also we do have some other strategic partners, not only local. Now international, and currently we are corroborating with the Institute of Public Administration of Malaysia International. We also corroborate with the Civil Service College of Singapore, and we have some collaboration with IPAC of Canada. We have also collaboration with RIPA of UK, and some other institutions with which we are collaborating. SCHALKWYK: What sort of collaboration? What is involved in the collaboration? HASUNGA: Normally, we do collaborate in specific areas. For example, in RIPA sometimes we do RIPA and which institution of UK... We do collaborate in designings, for example, we can say we want to develop a leadership program catering for senior officers. Now because we would like now -- because we are going to train senior officers, we would like now to collaborate with some other experienced people in the world who can bring the best practices and help us to resource in those programs. So, those are -- those are the areas where we collaborate. For example, We collaborated with IPAC. They have been organizing meetings. We have been also attending in Canada, and they have also been coming here, and again we developed what we call a "leadership competence framework," it is almost going to be adopted by the government, but we talked together with a certain organization in Canada. We developed that leadership competence framework which we thought that one it is going to lead to help to improve the capacity of our leaders in the country. But also we have been collaborating with the Civil Service College of Singapore and it brings the best practices in the public services, like how to apply balance in school care, how can it be used in the public service. And how to improve customer care, and other programs, leadership programs, management programs, administration programs, so many things -- so we have been collaborating with them in different programs. SCHALKWYK: What are the major challenges facing the college? HASUNGA: Currently, the major challenges that are facing the college are: the first one which is very critical, currently, is the capacity of the college in terms of trainers. In terms of trainers we don't' have enough trainers who have got good experience and qualifications which are needed particularly when we want to train in the areas of leadership, management, and administration referring to the top leaders of the government. So, when we want to train them, normally we don't have enough capacity. SCHALKWYK: What sort of qualifications do your faculty have? HASUNGA: Currently... about 25 out of 54,( remember I said we have 54 trainers), 25 of them have got masters degree, and we have now taken some few students to Ph.D. status, but they have masters degree. Yes. So, that's the first challenge. The second challenge is about resources. We don't have -- we don't have facility -- enough facilities, modern facilities, like having maybe a resources center, where now these public officers can come and access information, share the information, get the best practices, so now that one we don't have currently because we don't have that capacity to establish it. Of course we want to establish it, We have sourced a few funds from NOFIK from the Netherlands, so now they're trying to help us to build that resource center, but we thought if we have something at that one then public servants could have been coming here and getting whatever information they wanted to get from this. So, that's the second challenge which we have in terms of restoring -- in terms of facilities they're not up to the standard which we need. So, the third one is location itself. Of course this is located in a very strategic area because we are near the State House, we are near the -- all the ministries here. But, we thought when you bring these senior officers to study here. Normally they are being interrupted because sometimes they are called back to their offices to do some other activities, so you find now it impairs concentration. So, we thought if we could find a different campus somewhere if where now if we have -- if we have those programs which are catering for senior officers, then we can just take them to those areas so they can concentrate and try to solve specific problems relating to the public service. So, those are the challenges also which we have currently. We have identified some areas where we can develop again, but again we have a challenge of having-I mean, funding it. Who is going to fund it to develop that one, where we could have very modern facilities, conference centers and other things so that we could also be hosting, like, international conferences, debates, discussions relating to the public service? SCHALKWYK: OK... HASUNGA: No, just continue. SCHALKWYK: OK, certainly. Is there a concern that people who are trained in the Civil Service College leave the Civil Service to go work in the private sector? HASUNGA: Yes. SCHALKWYK: Is there ever a problem with people who you train -- HASUNGA: Yes. SCHALKWYK: -- in the Ministries leaving to go and work in the private sector once they've been trained? HASUNGA: Yes, yeah, because now the current practice is almost a 50-50: 50 are from the public service, 50 are from the private sector. So, we also do training for the private sector, so most of them they are just securing -- particularly those who are fresh from schools, when they come here we teach them, we train them. After they have graduated now they go to start working with the private sector. SCHALKWYK: And who pays for their studies, normally? HASUNGA: Their sponsors, their parents, their -- some of them, their organizations will fund them there. SCHALKWYK: Has the sort of courses in the public service college changed as the PRSP program has changed? HASUNGA: Pardon? SCHALKWYK: Have you changed your courses as the goals of the public service reform program have changed? HASUNGA: Yes. Initially when we had public service reform program, which we used to call it phase 1, it was having different objectives and different -- different direction. But now, we have PSRP 2 which has come up with different objectives, different expectations, different direction, so we have also changed our program to be in line with the changes in the public service because we have to teach what is needed in the public service. We have to go to the direction in which the government is going, and sometimes we have even to advise the government what they are supposed to do, so you find most of the programs we have changed in line with this. Including even short term-even long-term courses now, we are changing them. We are changing currently. We are in the process of reviewing and changing them. We want all the long term courses to be competency based training. SCHALKWYK: What do you mean by that? HASUNGA: Competency based training is different from the traditional one whereby now these people could just come here and learn the theories. At the end of the day you find that you test them by giving them the exams and then they pass. When they go to work they can't perform. So, normally we want our courses to be practical-oriented. These people, if you train them in a specific area, they should be able to do it practically. If you're training a driver, then the driver should be able to drive the car. It's where you can judge that somebody's competent. It's a not a question of getting the A in the exams, it's a question of performing that someone can try. So, now even the programs which we are offering, the training which we are offering currently, we want now our people when they go back, they should be able to apply the knowledges which they have got. They should be able to translate it into practice by demonstrating everything, so it is more practical oriented than the previous one. SCHALKWYK: And how have you done that? How have you made them more practical oriented? HASUNGA: What we did-we tried to organize in some stakeholders' meeting. We called a stake holders' meeting, we asked them, "Now, we have these graduates, what do you want them to do at their work?" So, now the stake holders told us that, "We want these people they should be able to do one, two, three, four, five, six." So, they mentioned the type of skills which they wanted these people to have, and then we developed what we call occupation checks. Now, occupation checks is the one that guided us to develop the kind of training program which we should develop, and how we should prepare these people to become competent in delivering their performance. Yes. SCHALKWYK: And who were those stakeholders? HASUNGA: Yes? SCHALKWYK: Who were the stakeholders? HASUNGA: Who are the stakeholders? SCHALKWYK: At the meeting? HASUNGA: We had the various participants from ministries, from independent departments, from agencies, from private sectors, and from our trainers themselves as well as trainers from different institutions. From our college, from other institutions, and then also from the general public in the area, because they have also to come and tell us what their expecting our people to do when they finish their studies. So, those are the stake holders. Including the local government-I have forgotten the local government. It is a part of the government, but local government specifically because it's too big in Tanzania, so we also have stake holders from the Local Government Reform Program and local government administration. SCHALKWYK: Right, if you were to write a manual or a handbook on training civil servants, what do you think the most important issues would be? HASUNGA: I would think that most issues which have to be in the training manual: First of all, is how we develop-how we conducted training assessment before we developed the curriculum. Then, after undertaking the training assessment, how do we go about developing the curriculum itself? Who are the people involved? It means we have to involve about three groups. We have to involve the trainers themselves. They have to be involved in designing, determining the content of the training programs; and then you have also the trainers; and then you have also the sponsors, or the bosses, or the superiors in the organizations-they have also to be involved in determining the content of the curriculum. And then, after determining the curriculum, we have to discuss methodology. Methodology is how are we supposed to deliver that training. What method are we going to use to deliver the training to these people so that they can understand so that they can improve their performance? Because, delivering-method of delivering is quite, very important. If you are not going to have a system which is more practical, more participatory, more involving these people. At the end of the day, they will go to a training, they will just sleep there, and they're not going to come up with something. So, you have that one. And third, you have also to talk about the venue. I mean, the places where you're going to deliver. And that one, it has to go with the -- the teaching aids which you are about to use to deliver the training programs. You must have the training aids, whether you're going to use the projectors, or going to use the video, or so many. So, now what types of training aids are you going to use? And then -- SCHALKWYK: What sort of teaching aids do you use in your courses? HASUNGA: In our courses we use multimedia projectors, we use computers, we use flip charts sometimes, and sometimes, very rarely, we use black box. But, the flip charts, the computers, and-what do we call it?-overhead projectors, yes. So, those are the teaching aids which we use. And again, after you have designed those teaching aids and other things, you have again to go to how are you going to assiess the training program, that the training program is effective or not effective. If it has been effective or not effective, so now it means we have to talk about evaluation, the assessment, which method, how are you going to assess those people. So now, those ones have to be included in the training programs. And how are you going to develop the training materials? The training materials which are relevant, which are up to date, how do you balance between theories and the practical? And how do you up-to-date them because sometimes we can have theories which are quite, very wrong. They're outdated. So, you have to make sure that actually you prepare the materials which are up-to-date, reflecting the real situation of the world currently and the changes in the world. SCHALKWYK: Where do you normally get your materials? HASUNGA: The materials? Normally we do prepare ourselves. Normally we form a team of people, if we have a certain program we design the programs, we find the relevant books first of all, we collected the views from different people who have attended different seminars. Books, internet, and sometimes we do source the materials from different-other institutions, including even the USA (laughter). So, you access them and then if you find that there are some books which are quite, very relevant, and they're new books, then we have to order them and purchase them, we bring them so that they can help us in developing the training materials. SCHALKWYK: So, you talked a bit earlier about a resource center here. HASUNGA: Yes. SCHALKWYK: Do you have a library, and what is your resource center like at the moment? HASUNGA: Currently, we don't have a resource center. I could say we don't have a resource center in this instant, we have a small library-a library here where we have got some books-old and the new books. And we have very few computers that are there. So, you find now the majority of the people are not having access to the internet, are not having access to the e-books so that one it becomes a challenge. So, that's why we thought now if we could just establish now that -- if we could establish here as a resource center, where it is networked in the world. We network here, and then we network with other institutions in the world so that the participants, when they come, they should be able to get all the information that they want to get through the resource center. And the best practices, which we find somewhere, or if they're being done somewhere, the best resources. Then we have to bring them to the resource center so the participants, when they come, they should be able to access those information. That's what we intended to do. But, currently, we don't have it. We don't have it. SCHALKWYK: Talking a bit about the Public Service Reform Program on a whole, what do you think the major challenges facing the public service reform program is, and what capacity gaps do you think they face that are most important? HASUNGA: I think the main challenge, which is facing the Public Service Reform Program in Tanzania in particular, is about change of attitude of the people themselves. The culture. Our culture needed to change if we wanted to become effective. I have seen that the majority of the people they are not aware about the Public Service Reform. And sometimes when you tell them that the Public Service Reform Program is having these exams, it is doing this, they think that these reforms are donor driven reforms, not internally oriented reforms. So, in that case you find the majority of the people are not becoming serious, so they don't regard it seriously and they think that maybe this is a condition which we have been given by the donor so that they help us in funding our problems. So that indicates that you find most of the areas on which the public service reform program is putting emphasis, and you want to implement, these people are not implementing it thoroughly. So that's why I thought that may be something which we'll need to change is our culture. The attitude of the public servants, the attitude of the public in general. They should understand the meaning of Public Service Reform Program and what is the relationship between this reform program with the real life in our environment, and how do we collaborate, or how do we work with the private sector in general. Because, what I have come to realize is that the public service reform program is aiming at improving the service delivery systems. But, why do we want to improve service and delivery? So that the citizens, so that the people can benefit. See? From the services which are offered by the government. But, now, if this one has not been done yet, definitely people are going to suffer. So now, we are saying now they have to change, and the people should be understand that this one, we have to collaborate, we have to partner, so that we improve our service - that's one. Two, leadership: I think leadership is a challenge to our reform program. We have very few people who have got capacity to manage this public service reform program. And not only that, even in the government, we have that problem of leadership, and we have been experiencing a lot of scandals and a lot of things you might have come across in newspapers. So we thought if we have strong leadership, leadership which has got vision, leadership which is committed, leadership which is results oriented, definitely can address that problems. And, Public Service Reform Program it should put much emphasize on transforming our leaders to become results oriented, and they should stick to whatever they promise to the people. That is the challenge which I'm seeing to the public service reform program. Maybe the last thing is about the systems. The systems and the structures that the government has now to improve the systems and the structures so that these systems can work independently, they can support service and delivery, they can support democracy. They can support improving the welfare of the people. Now, you find some of the systems in the government, in the public service, are not supporting this one. While the government is talking too much about improving the welfare, but the systems are hindering the achievement, so we -- so I thought now the government should put much emphasis on that. And then, maybe the last point which I wanted to talk about, the challenge which I think we are facing, is about the policies. Most of the policies are outdated. They are not in line with what is taking place in the world now, and it is the responsibility of the government to make sure that the policies are up to date. They should reflect on whatever is taking place now. So you find so many policies are outdated, and when you want now to implement you are implementing basing on the previous policies which are not relevant for the time being. So, I think they now they need to prepare some policy reform letters, and devise a system which is going to improve the policy reform measure. Maybe these are the few things which I can talk about public service reform programs. But again, maybe lastly, it's about integrating these reforms. We have -- currently have got Public Service Reform Program, we have got local government reform programs, we have got legal sector reform program, we have got our casual reform program, so many reforms programs. But now, I think we need to harmonize all these reforms, so that all the reforms they move in the same direction. SCHALKWYK: Does the Public Service College do any training on purely the reforms and why the reforms are happening? HASUNGA: Yes, it is our responsibility to have been doing it, but we do very rarely because of the funding program. But, that program we have it. Yes, we have it and we have been involving with the ministry to facilitate in MTAs so that they understand the direction of the reforms. We have been doing it, yes. SCHALKWYK: OK, thank you very much, do you have anything else you'd like to add before you finish the interview? HASUNGA: No, not very much, but I thank you very much. I have not explained the functions I have just summed up. SCHALKWYK: Well, go ahead. HASUNGA: Yeah, I want to just -- as I said now, TPSC is an institution when it was formed it was given what we would call an instrument, and that instrument provided the functions which TPSC is supposed to perform which I didn't mention previously, and these functions include developing skills, knowledge, and awareness. Developing skills, knowledge, and awareness in management, leadership, administration, and office support. That was one of the functions which we were given as a new college. The second one, it was we were given to offer advance-ory services to the public service manager. We have to advise the government how to improve management of the public service. And the third, we had -- we are given the task of disseminating best practices, disseminating knowledge in the public service management; the best practices. Those knowledges from different researches and other things, we have to disseminate them by maybe publishing articles, maybe having journals and other things so that the government can also have an opportunity of seeing them, and if the public in general they can just read them. And lastly, is developing the new skills -- new skills in the areas of information technology. Particularly, currently when the government would want to move to what call e-government. E-government, we can not move in e-government when the whole country is not having enough electricity. We don't have computers. People are not aware-they are completely out of date. So, we think these are the areas where we have to improve, and we have to help now the public service. And, the last thing which I wanted to say, now taking these functions, we had to develop our vision as I call it. That this work it should be a center of excellence in delivering the highest quality practical responsive and competence investing training possible. That is our vision of the college, and our mission is to provide training to the public servants. So, I just wanted to sum up that those are our -- our -- our things which we have been doing, and that is what Tanzania Public Service College is going to do. Innovations for Successful Societies Series: Civil Service Oral History Program Interview number: E3 ______________________________________________________________________ 3 Use of this transcript is governed by ISS Terms of Use, available at www.princeton.edu/successfulsocieties Use of this transcript is governed by ISS Terms of Use, available at www.princeton.edu/successfulsocieties