An initiative of the National Academy of Public Administration, and the Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs and the Bobst Center for Peace and Justice, Princeton University Oral History Program Series: Policing Interview no.: T1 Interviewee: Benson Bana Interviewer: Daniel Scher Date of Interview: 14 August 2009 Location: University of Dar es Salaam Dar es Salaam Tanzania Innovations for Successful Societies, Bobst Center for Peace and Justice Princeton University, 83 Prospect Avenue, Princeton, New Jersey, 08544, USA www.princeton.edu/successfulsocieties SCHER: My name is Daniel Scher and I'm the Associate Director of the Innovations for Successful Societies project and I'm here with Professor Benson Bana at the University of Dar es Salaam. Sir, thank you very much for taking time out of your schedule to meet with me, especially considering that this is the second time that you have entertained an interviewer from our program. BANA: You're welcome, Daniel. SCHER: My colleague Andrew Schalkwyk spoke to you about your experience, your extensive experience, in public-sector management, and I'm here today to speak to you a little bit about some of your thoughts on internal management of the police itself because I've been looking at the Tanzanian police reform program. So before we begin I wonder if you could maybe just for people who may not have heard your other interview with us, just give a very brief introduction. I think you have moved positions since the last time we spoke with you. So just a little bio as to what you're doing now. BANA: Of course, I've been working for the public service for a long time, and I took a break to work for a private company for three years and then came back to academics. But my area of interest is basically in public administration as well as human resource management in public organizations, police forces, ministries, agencies, and independent departments of government, provided the institution is financed by the taxpayer's money. I am interested to study the way institutions manage their human resources, that which is the most valuable asset of the institution. So any police organization including the Tanzania police force operates with the people. It works with people. It achieves its objectives through people. So I believe as a human resource practitioner, a human resource manager, that success of an organization depends entirely on how the organization itself manages its valuable resource and that is the human capital or the human component of its resources. SCHER: What challenges does a police force hold in particular for the management of human resources? Are there any things that make a police force distinct from other public sector organizations? BANA: Yes, a police force is distinctive because first of all it doesn't fall under the mainstream of public service. It has got its own Public Service Commission. It does not fall under the Public Service Commission so it has its own way of recruiting staff, own way of appointing officers, promoting officers. By the end of the day it has to abide by the cardinal principles of human resource management that govern the development of people in organizations be it public or private. The cardinal principles are the same. If you are managing people you need to have a strategy of planning for human resources, that is human resource planning. You need to plan the acquisition of your staff. You need to plan for attrition. You need to plan for the competencies that you need and the like. You need also to train your staff, develop them. You need to recruit and select staff, those who are applying for vacant positions in the organization. You need to handle grievances and these parameters. You need to compensate and reward them fairly. You need to have full-fledged training programs. So the core functions, what we refer to in human resource management as the key practice areas of human resource management or the key levers, have got to be clearly out [there], whether you are serving a police force or another organization. So that uniqueness is-the "what" is the same regarding managing people. The "what" is the same, but the "how" may differ. The how in the police force, how you recruit may differ from how the mainstream public service recruits. How you train your people may differ from how the mainstream public service organization may function. But the canon principles, that is the core functions are the same. SCHER: Now you've looked a little bit at the functioning of the Tanzania police force in this respect. Am I correct in understanding that? BANA: Maybe a little bit. Tanzania embarked on implementing public service reforms, say, in 1992. But some of us felt that yes, the mainstream public service organizations, the ministries, the executive agencies, the independent departments of government are being reformed. There are conscious efforts to change the way they work. But there were less effort or no effort in the other units of government including the police forces, which were not undertaking reforms. That was now intolerable: They couldn't wait as spectators; they couldn't watch things go around; because reform is a conscious change toward making things, systems, work better. So we thought that the Tanzania Police Force, like other organizations, needed to take stock of itself, needed to do its own reports, examine its strengths, weaknesses, opportunities; and that in fact I did find areas where it needed improvement and, as you know, the police force did not have very good working relationship with the community it was created to serve. People were looking at the police as an organization, as an entity which is peripheral to their daily activities but you will agree with me, Daniel, that the police force plays a vital role in society. In order to play that vital role, to combat crime, to enforce public safety and security it needs support of the public, and that support was not available for the police. So the current government, the fourth phase government of President Jakaya Mrisho Kikwete, when it came into power, of course, there was a new Inspector-General Police appointed to lead the police, but in line with the vision of the fourth phase government. So a lot of changes had to be made, and we are glad that the police force, the Chief of Police who was appointed, was very much able, very articulate, very proactive and he has added a value to the way the police force works today in terms of bringing closer the police force to the public. So with the initiative called the community policing, the Tanzania Police force is making a difference in terms of executing its constitutional mandate. That was his vision, that in order for the police force to carry out its functions properly, it can't isolate itself from the public. The police force needs information from the public; it needs support from the public. So I think it took that as a challenge for his management-style orientation towards reforming the police force. So the burning issue has been to institutionalize the community policing initiative into the Tanzanian Police Force. That has been done accurately, and perfectly. Of course it is too early to assess impact, but there are indicators showing that the initiative is bearing fruits. Again, of course, apart from community policing, the other issue that was taken onboard in the course of reforming the Tanzanian police force was to professionalize the force. Professionalism, that was the missing link. Yes, the police force is very technical, the police force work is very technical, and you can't leave it to every Tom, Dick and Harry. It has to be carried out by knowledgeable people, people with the right competencies for the police force in terms of taking proactive action to prevent the crime, to arrest the criminals, to work with other police associations in the region and all over. So you needed professional police officers. You needed a sense of professionalism in the police force and the professionalism, as you know Daniel, goes with a set of values. You needed to educate the staff, at all levels that is the gazetted officers, inspectors, noncommissioned officers and the constables on the do's and don'ts of a policeman, of a police officer. That was lacking. And I think this is the drive that the current Tanzanian police force reforms are addressing. The third aspect was modernization. As you know, Tanzania is one of the poorest countries in the world; that is a fact. But the current police management thought that something different could be done to modernize the way the police officers work in terms of retooling, in terms of giving them knowledge on the new types of crime: cyber crime, crime related to Internet, and the totality of ICT (information and communication technology), new equipment, new knowledge. I think this has worked well. We have a lot of policemen being trained abroad in different dimensions. So these three important aspects have been the central focus areas by reforms which are currently going on in the Tanzania police force. The major thrust being institutionalization of community policing, professionalism and modernization of the police force. SCHER: Presumably there are changes to internal management systems which are following out of the professionalism. BANA: I think when you set to reform there are areas that you need to look at. For instance, we have a law, the legal administrational framework, should be an area of focus. We have the Police General Orders. They have to be reviewed with a view to attuning them to the current vision of the Tanzanian police force which addresses three central issues, community policing, professionalization and modernization. Then you need some values, a set of values to change the mindset of the people you have in the organization. You need to define your core values. For instance, we learn from the literature that there are guiding values which are central to community policing. The values of trust, cooperation, communication, ingenuity, initiative, discretion, leadership, responsibility, and respect. Those are the core values which go hand in hand or which are consonant with the imperatives of community policing. Professionalism, again, you need to underscore the values of integrity, trustworthiness. We need people's commitment in being apolitical, and impartial. Those are the values that underlie the second area of focus in the Tanzanian police force reforms of professionalism, as well as training. Focused training, long-term training, which aims at equipping police officers with the necessary competencies. And of course modernization is about re-tooling, giving people new technologies of dealing with crime in terms of preventing crime, combating crime as well as arresting criminals. And, of course, holding them to account in the courts of law of course. So my advice, and I think I did a paper regarding HRM strategy. I did a paper for the Tanzanian Police Force senior officers on how best they could reform their HR function because what they had is command and order. You get people in charge of the HR functions that do not have the necessary competencies, you do not have a unit which specifically addresses human resource management issues in the Tanzanian police force. Again, as you know, you don't need uniformed people, professional policemen, to manage the HR function. You may need to incorporate competent people who are not police officers or policemen or policewomen, and these are available. That was an area deserving critical attention in reforming the HR function in Tanzania Police Force. Then you need a unit, full tasked with the development of staff in terms of HRM. So initially the police force did not have specialized units to address people management issues. For instance, the issue of human resource planning-which is very central, which is at the core-it was not an issue in the Tanzanian Police Force before the current reforms. If you went straight over to the police headquarters and asked them today how many competent policemen do you have in drug trafficking for instance, in cyber crime? They didn't know the number. How many people are you going to need in the short term, in the medium term, and in the long term? They couldn't give you a definite figure. What is the attrition trend? How many people are retiring this year? They did not have a figure at hand. So you needed a full-fledged Human Resource Management Information System installed, so as to enable the police to control the vertical and the horizontal movements within the force itself. That was one area which we thought needed attention. Another area was training and development. Training and development was not part of HR in the Tanzanian Police Force initially; it fell under operations. Then we thought this function is very much divorced from its home. Training and development is a distinctive key practice area of human resources management. It doesn't belong to operations. So it had to be placed where it should be, where it could be managed better. Then you have issues of health and safety. You task your policemen to go and arrest the criminals. In the course of executing their duties they may be engaged in rough work, and they may be compelled to shoot and kill. So you needed to have a specialized section which could help the people manage the trauma, manage this condition which they were supposed to be, by way of executing their duties, to engage in. I was not trying to kill, but circumstances dictated that I shot a criminal. So I shot. But that is against my own will, my own belief, so I need somebody to do some kind of counseling. A counseling unit was needed in the force; that was very important. Then issues of health and safety; that was also critical. We are living in a situation in which HIV (human immunodeficiency virus) AIDS (acquired immune deficiency syndrome) is rampant, it is just killing people. It is robbing the Tanzanian Police Force and the other public organizations of their valuable assets. So you need specified units to address such killer diseases including HIV/AIDS. Then you need performance management. We are dealing, we are living in a world which demands results; results-oriented management is the magic word in today's organization. So you need again to set standards. How do you appraise the police officers? How do you appraise your inspectors, gazetted officers, Non Commissioned Officers (NCOs) and constables? So those are-that was a missing area. How do we appraise performance? How do we reward good performance? How do we improve the underperformers, if you like? So you needed a performance management system installed within the police force. Then there are a lot of complaints against discipline, discipline grievances. How do you handle a policeman who feels that he has been aggrieved by a senior? You need to create such opportunities. This is an institution which goes by command and order. But somebody is aggrieved somewhere. SCHER: Within the police? BANA: Yes, within the police. So you needed a system which would address such things. They have a system, but you need to refine it within the context of our modern era. Then you need-there are issues to deal with compensation and benefits. That's another critical area that needed attention. So those are some of the areas that may be, as the police forces continue to carry out reforms, they may wish to address in order to streamline the HR function within the Tanzania Police Force. SCHER: So these are some of the recommendations that you gave? BANA: Yes, some of the recommendations that I put forward, yes. And of course tracking, track your own staff. There is nothing-if you don't know how many people will you need in the short term, in the medium term, in the long term; how many people will die in the police force; how many people will be terminated due to various reasons; how many people will retire, so that you can replace them easily. Also to assess the current trends regarding crime. What is their nature and trend of crime so that you position or you reposition the Tanzania Police Force to deal with the changing nature of crime. You have drug trafficking, people trafficking, cyber crime. So you need a police force which is diverse in terms of competencies to address current crimes and future crimes if you are going to be able to predict them. SCHER: There are quite a few questions that I'd like to pick up on from that. BANA: All right. SCHER: Firstly one of the things I was interested in is your performance management, your advocacy of a performance management system for the police itself. This is something we've come across before and that is particularly difficult in police organizations. What are the metrics that you use to evaluate an officer that is performing to a very high level as opposed to an officer who is not? It can be quite complicated looking at things like-do you look at number of cases solved, or number of arrests made? I mean, what were the types of things that you were thinking about when advocating a performance management system for use within the police? BANA: That is complicated, an area which requires careful study. Performance management, not only in the police force, everywhere. But again, there are qualitative and quantitative measures or proxy indicators that one may wish to use. For instance, if you are an Officer Commanding District OCD, we can judge your performance by looking at the rate of crime in your area of jurisdiction. If at all there were reported 100 murder cases, some of which could be prevented, last year or in a given year. If you are able to reduce this trend to 80%, it is a performance indicator, performance is improving in that area. So reduction in crime may be one of the indicators. And rapid response. How rapidly do you respond to a call by a member of the public? Does it take ten minutes? Twenty minutes? A day? Two or three? So that also can be a good measure. Again, arrests. How fast do you deploy your police officers and policemen to arrest a suspected criminal? Criminals at large, how often are they arrested? So there are some indicators. Again, as I said, the community policing philosophy presupposed closer working relationship with the public. You may wish to also get the public opinion regarding the performance of the police in a given area. It is very possible, it's very possible. You do a survey questionnaire where you get people's perception. How do they perceive the performance of the police in the area? They will give you indicators. So there are so many ways which you can-. And of course setting standards. You shouldn't-in most cases we don't set targets for officers in different units. But if the police force could set targets, reduce crime by this rate, response rate by this rate, that also serve to measure the performance at the operational level. Again, in each area, how many police forces have been trained? How many training days per policeman? SCHER: I see. BANA: That's an area that you can measure. Mentoring programs, succession planning in place. So you can have both the so-called soft measures and the hard measures. I believe you can use qualitative and quantitative measures to measure performance. But the magic word is to be able to set performance standards and performance targets. Those have got to beSMART, have to be Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Realistic and Time-bound. I think the Tanzanian police force, like many other police forces elsewhere, they can be able to set performance measures. That's one area that I think they need to improve on. SCHER: Another thing that you mentioned was the number of grievances within the police force itself, perhaps directed towards-. BANA: Yes, you are right. You can also look at the grievances which the police force, the police officer within are raised, and work out a strategy of reducing them. That's very possible. SCHER: Within that strategy were you looking at things like perhaps the creation of a sorts of ombuds office, or what were you thinking of as a mechanism of dealing with intrapolice grievances? BANA: Intrapolice grievances, the good things are the Tanzanian police force they have got internal mechanisms of handling grievances, they have. This I think is prescribed in the Police General Orders (PGO). But then you have got to make it transparent so that it is known by the "rank and file" much as it is known by the senior or gazetted police officers. So you need also to make sure that people at the grassroots, the rank and file, they know what to do in case they feel that they are aggrieved by their seniors. You may have good systems, you may have good legal provisions; but to what extent are these provisions used? Are these provisions known to your people is another issue. I still find that it is very difficult for people to rise up and record their grievances with their bosses because the reporting relationship sometimes may undermine the good intentions of the policy and orders because of the mechanisms that are in place. But if you reduce those hurdles, you make the structures user friendly then you may be able to reduce grievances and complaints against bosses. Nothing has happened. If you talk to the policemen, they all have their own grievances, but how often do they raise their concerns is another issue. They fear to be victimized. They don't have safety nets in place. That's why I say the successful implementation of any reforms presupposes refocusing, repositioning your institutional and legal frameworks. SCHER: So in terms of the recommendations that you made, are you aware of any which have been implemented or adopted? BANA: Yes, in fact I have to be sincere that the drive to reform the Tanzania Police Force, the way it works, was initiated in, say, was effected from 2006. SCHER: So it is still early. BANA: It is too early, but there are proxy indicators that something is being done within the police force. We follow this. We sometimes meet with the senior officers. We follow them when they are addressing their colleagues, especially the seniors addressing the lower-ranking officers. We follow what is being reported in the press. You realize, and actually the public opinion. I work for the Research and Education for Democracy in Tanzania (REDET) program, and I can assure you whenever we conduct opinion polls from the people, you can sense that there are areas of improvement. The perception of the people towards the Tanzania Police Force is improving. The perception is not very much positive, very positive, but there are indicators that there are improvements which are being recorded in that area. Rome was not built in a day, so it is going to take time to change the mindset of the people. SCHER: Sure. BANA: There is a saying here in Tanzania that if you are somebody who-; in England you'd have people saying, the police officer would like to speak to Daniel; they would like to speak to Daniel. But here if the concept of speaking to somebody, that means, somebody is helping the police. Actually you are not even helping the police, you're in custody. This is the interpretation. So we can see some deliberate initiatives to first and foremost restore confidence of the citizenry to the police force, to the policemen, so that they can volunteer information, information which can pave the way to reducing crime or to arresting criminals. We can sense that. And there are indicators, verifiable indicators that are in place. But as I said, Rome wasn't built in a day. SCHER: Sure. BANA: The police force, the perception of people, many people in this country tended to think that policemen are corrupt. They don't have hard evidence, but there is a general feeling that corruption is rampant in Tanzania's Police Force. But, if you hear what the senior police officers are saying and the strategies they are putting into place and the actions that they take whenever somebody is accused of corruption in the Tanzania Police Force, you realize that there is a firm resolve to weeding out corrupt practices from the Tanzania Police Fforce. So there are intentions, good intentions which are being translated into practice. But changing the mindset of the Tanzania Police Force and the people , it will require a long time. It can't happen overnight. It presupposes everybody's efforts and mechanisms to make sure that professionalism reigns within the Tanzanian police force. SCHER: So to what do you attribute the slight improvement in perception; is it the community policing? BANA: First of all it is the vision of the IGP himself, as a person. SCHER: The IGP as a leader. BANA: Yes, the IGP as a leader. Yes, I have had several occasions to meet with him, chat with him. This is a man of impeccable integrity, I can say so. The choice of the president to appoint him as the Tanzania Police Force Chief was not a mistake; I think he chose the right man. The way he addresses his officers, senior, gazetted officers for that matter and the rank and file, the way he interacts with the public, it's very commendable, it's highly professional. So the IGP himself. And I will say the IGP himself comparatively, if you compare to his predecessors, you can see in him a sense of professionalism, a sense of commitment, a sense of integrity, a sense of cooperation, and you name it. SCHER: I see. BANA: So the person himself, the man in charge himself. I think it was the right choice. Then you look at the orientation of the seniors, the Commissioner of Police, the Senior Assistant Commissioner of Police, the Assistant Commissioners of Police, the Deputy Commissioner of Police, you can see some remarkable changes. They are trying to emulate what he does. SCHER: I see. BANA: I think he is a leader worth the name, so that is one. Two, the supportive socio-political framework, let's say. You had this drive. People demanding accountability; there is that element. Because I compare Tanzania in the previous one-party rule, state-party regime, and Tanzania in the current era of political pluralism. There is that openness, people demanding accountability. There is a strong force, people, pressure groups, interest groups, series of such organizations trying to demand accountability, trying to demand democracy, to be seen on the ground. That drive also has compelled to awaken the Tanzanian police force to conduct itself in a socially, politically responsible manner. Yes. The demand is there requiring police to conduct themselves impartially. The demand is there e, to compel the Tanzanian Police Force to demonstrate in actions that they are abiding by the basic tenets of human rights, that they respect human rights. The demand is there. So that of course in itself is a pressure from the public to reorienting the way the Tanzania Police Force carries out its duties. SCHER: So perhaps it is not so much a supportive environment as an environment in which the public applies pressure-. BANA: Yes, and the political leadership, of course. We have a political leadership; one would say it is a listening leadership, especially the President. In his simple orientation he listens, and for that matter he has remained popular. So here is the top boss in the country, the top leadership, listening to the people, demanding accountability. So that compels the police force to behave in the proper manner. And don't forget the influence of the donor community in their own countries. They're also demanding the state organs, the law and order enforcement organs to conduct themselves in a proper, acceptable manner. They have their ways, using their diplomatic muscles, blah, blah, to compel the state organs, the law enforcement organs, to behave according to-. Don't forget that Tanzania has ratified a number of international agreements AND conventions which requires the country to conduct itself in a universally acceptable manner. So the police force are not neutral, they're not an island. So there are so many pressures, both from internal and external, and there is this element for improving the legal literacy among the public. I know if a policeman slapped me in my face, I may go to his superiors and raise, record my grievances. So, legal literacy creation in the public is paramount. SCHER: That's a fairly new thing. BANA: Yes. Because you are not a policeman they don't even speak to you, they just speak of you by the batons. You know this is not the way a policeman should conduct himself. This is abusing my own, downgrading my own human dignity. I need to record my complaints to his or her superiors, and I'll be innocent. SCHER: But this sense of being able to do that, is that a relatively new-? BANA: Yes the sense of being able to do that throws different mechanisms. In the past, I'm talking just of this country and the one-party regime, where the police had to abide by the party directives, because we had a supreme party in this country. So all institutions and organs of the state had to carry out their duties s under the auspices of the party, the party in power, the party in command. So you couldn't join the police force if you were not a party member and a staunch party member, a party cadre actually. Party cadres were selected to lead the police force. But gone are those days, gone are those days. People now know there are limits; they can enjoy their freedoms; they can demand to be treated in a modest way. So they get push from the people, that I know my rights. I can give you some incidences. There was a shootout around, down there on the road. People who were accused by the policemen of being criminals were indeed legitimate bussiness people. I think three people or so were killed if you follow what was reported in the newspaper. Here there was a Regional Crime Oofficer, (RCO), who was accusing them...No! Those were not criminals. Those were authentic, bona fide business people. They were not criminals whatsoever. So the public came to tell us, enough, we knew these people. They have no record of criminality. So their shooting couldn't be justified. And after all, the police are supposed to arrest, not to kill. You can't become the judge, prosecutor and jury. The police, you can't serve three different roles. So the people complained, the press took it up, and that compelled the President to form a special committee to investigate in the whole saga. Then the Committee's findings revealed that those killings were not justifiable. So those who were involved were arrested including the Regional Crime Officer, one Mr. Zombe, and they were accused in the court of law. They are defending themselves. Accusations are being levelled against them, and I think we are waiting for the judgment by the court of law next Monday. SCHER: I see. BANA: When it will be Monday I think it will be Monday the 17th. SCHER: So this is very current. BANA: Yes, very current. But if you start to look into the events surrounding those accusations and the process which led them to a court of law, it originated from the people who agitated for an independent investigation team to probe into the events which lead to the killings. So there have been several instances. The current IGP is a good listener. That's why I say he has the quality of a good leader. I remember there was another event in Arusha, where civilians were killed but the people raised up and they were smart enough to create a committee to look into that. It was the problem. So again there is demand from the public here which compelled the police force to behave and to behave well and professionally. SCHER: And perhaps for the first time they have an IGP who is actually quite responsive to these demands. Would you say that? BANA: The IGP is very responsive. That's why, that's what makes the current IGP unique from his predecessors. He is very responsive and quick in action. SCHER: I see. I had a quite specific question for you in particular as somebody who has a wide knowledge of the public sector. It is my understanding that the control of the police was removed from the Ministry of Safety and Security and moved over to the Ministry of Home Affairs. BANA: It has always been there. SCHER: I thought it was a new structure. BANA: No, I think we had Ministry of Home Affairs and Ministry of Security, I don't know that it still works. SCHER: I came across a reference that the Ministry of Security had sort of been incorporated into the Ministry of Home Affairs in some way. BANA: Initially, let me check because this is something which is verifiable. SCHER: OK. BANA: This is the government directorate. There is, Public Safety, we had that ministry for years. I think it is still. They created a specific ministry simply because this is a police force that is huge, extending in all parts of the country. So they thought they needed a specific ministry which does not really address other issues. Then they had to create the other one, the Ministry of Home Affairs, in charge of issues like immigration and public safety, including the Police Force, Prison Services, Fire and Rescue Force and Refugee service. I know, yes "Wizara ya Mambo ya Ndani ya Nchi" . SCHER: So there has been no recent change to that structure? BANA: I want to check to make sure. SCHER: We can move on and check afterwards. BANA: I want to be sure. But I remember, the first dispute was that this is a central ministry. We needed a specific ministry to oversee the functions of the Tanzania Police Force. I think that as well as the prisons, I think this is in charge of the police force as well as the prisons. I'll check. I need to be sure. SCHER: We can check. This has been very helpful so far. BANA: But that was the spirit: that the Tanzanian police force needed a full-fledged ministry in order to carry out its functions without much interference. I think they also created specific regions for areas which looked to be areas of trouble. If you looked at Dar es Salaam, for instance, we used to have one regional police commander, but now Dar es Salaam is a special zone, given the rate of crime, the nature of crime, and the population. So today you have, we have a special zone, they call it a special zone, with three regions. Dar es Salaam now has been transformed into three Police regions, one for Temeke, one for Ilala, and another one for Kinondoni. And a special zone headed by a Senior Assistant Commissioner of Police. That was done deliberately. SCHER: So I had a more general question, pulling the conversation back a little bit to some of the internal management systems that you proposed. Now you proposed a number of things. BANA: They have made changes. SCHER: They have. BANA: Yes, they have made changes. I haven't followed up the structure, but they've got a directorate. I don't know whether-a division in charge of resources which also takes care of issues of human resource management. SCHER: And that's a new division? BANA: Yes, it's a new division, I think. And training has been removed from operations division. SCHER: So that was again another one of your direct recommendations. BANA: Yes, direct recommendation. Now training is back to where it belongs. Operations unit which is in charge of operations. And the resources; of course they didn't create a specific division for human resource management, but at least all resources, including the human resource, they have a division. SCHER: In your experience of implementing these types of programs, what are some of the obstacles that are frequently encountered by trying to overhaul and improve a human resource system? In particular what are the obstacles you'd encounter within the police? You mentioned, actually before we started talking, the command structure. You have a system in place, in many ways already, a rank system where people follow orders and you're now trying to almost impose a new way of doing things. BANA: Of course whenever you're implementing reforms, the first thing to know is that, any reform initiatives, is conscious plan to bring about changes within an organization, including the Tanzanian police force.. A reform is essentially a journey not a destination. It is a journey not a destination, so changes will happen, but again, they will happen gradually. Again you have got to know that reforming an organization requires investments. You want to modernize. You want to propagate community policing, and, again, you want to professionalize. That entails a lot of investment in terms of training for the purpose of changing mindset, for the purpose of equipping your police force with new skills, new competencies and new technologies. So that requires investments. You may not have even the expertise or the resources to invest in that one, so you need also contact with friends, well-wishers, donors, to extend the hand of help. I think we have that. Most of our police force officers are now attending short-term and long-term programs in the U.S., especially when it comes to issues related to terrorism. You don't have expertise, but some people somewhere they have got this expertise. So you may wish to tap into that expertise. Again, reforms tend to create skeptics and supporters. So whatever you are dealing with, you are presenting reforms, there will be people who will support your reforms and there will be people who would like to maintain the status quo. So you need also to address them, both of them, those who are skeptics as well as the supporters and the reformers. Again the political way, that has been cited in several pieces. The political commitment is very crucial. The Inspector General of Police and the senior police officers may wish to implement certain changes, but then you need the political support, especially when you want to institutionalize community policing. You will need a lot of support from the political leadership in terms of mobilizing people. They are good mobilizers; they know how to deal with the public; they know the expectations of the people. So it is better to involve them. So I'm not sure if at all in terms of Tanzanian the political commitment is total. I'm not sure. I'm not sure, but I believe that we need to do more to demonstrate that the political leadership fully supports the reform initiatives that are being carried out within the Tanzania Police Force. Again, reforms and re-organization have got to do with changing the mindset, changing the way people do things. Changing the mindset is not an easy task. It presupposes conscious effort, deliberate effort, deliberate investment, and good recruitment and selection strategies. So I think this has got to be done, and I think they are doing it now. They are not recruiting off-handedly. No, they are recruiting consciously. So at the end of the day you don't recruit accountants who are going to become Thief Accountants, Chief Engineers who are going to become "Thief Engineers. So you need to do careful work when it comes to recruitment and selection, as well as another setback which may undermine reforms within an organization including the Tanzania Police Force may be the expectations. Reforms have a tendency of creating expectations from both the police force, the police officers, policemen and women, and the public. People like to see changes overnight. So you need also to manage expectations; otherwise people may become overwhelmed and take away the support that they needed to give you. Again, a reform, reforms are about changes. And we do not want revolutionary changes. We would like gradual changes, evolutionary changes that are sustainable. Revolutionary changes are no good for an organization. You need to educate people. Why are we transforming this organization from this degree to that degree? Why are we changing our system of doing work? Why are we changing these general orders? Why are we doing this? They need this to buy into the imperatives of the reforms. If you do it revolutionary, and the police force can do it revolutionary. Because it is through command and order. Here is the command, you take it. If you don't take it, you're in trouble. Reforms cannot be implemented that way. Reforms can't be implemented that way. Again, resources, especially resources. Reforms presuppose heavy investments. You are not going to professionalize by words but by deeds. You are not going to modernize by words but by the tangibles. You are not going to involve the communities by words, by platform speeches or whatever. You need to reach them using different strategies and mechanisms, and that will presuppose heavy investment in terms of buying air time on radio programs, television programs, mass campaigns that may also be expensive, if you want to reach the public. And also to educate, the educational initiatives. [end of file one] SCHER: This is part two of the interview with Professor Bana. You were just talking about the heavy investment required to sell the message of reform to the public. BANA: Yes. SCHER: I had a couple of questions just to wrap up as I don't want to take up too much more of your Friday afternoon but one of the things you mentioned a couple of times is donor involvement and donor country pressure. Yet what has struck me about this program while I've been here is that it seems to be very much a Tanzanian-driven program. While the donors may be putting some sort of abstract pressure, there's no real direct involvement by DFID (the U.K. Department for International Development) or by others. That seems to be quite a unique feature of the program that it has been developed by the Tanzanian police with the assistance of many academics here, for the Tanzanian police. I was wondering if you comment a little bit on what you think of the significance of that. BANA: Of course. Implementing any reform in an organization, the element of ownership is necessary. What do I mean by ownership? That's very important because reform, especially-if we take the Tanzania Police Force reforms, which I say addresses three elements, community policing, professionalism and modernization. Now, if you go to the first aspect, community policing, which is at the heart of the reforms, you will realize that this presupposed private-public partnership. That is very healthy. I don't see the police force operating in isolation, in a vacuum; I don't see that happening. If you want to create efficiency within the police force, it must work closely with the public. The public for me includes the civil society organizations, the donor communities, the academics, pressure groups, the interested groups, whatsoever, within and from outside. So in Tanzania, the nature of the police force, this is not supposed to be any police force, it is a state organ. It is a state organ. There are elements of confidentiality in there. There are elements of state security, so you may not open up to every Tom, Dick and Harry; that's a point. But you need support. You know that. This presupposes expenditure in terms of money. I don't have money, so I won't feel ashamed to go to whoever has money to finance a particular program, provided it is well intended, to promote public safety and security, to reduce crime. I think there is nothing wrong with it. When the Americans are training our police, are granting training opportunities, I don't think we are paying for that. Some of them are through bilateral agreements and I don't see any problem with that. In terms of recruitment, we have our private sector is growing right now. It is growing. They have money. I remember, there was in three months, they organized the cyber crime training. That was organized by the Tanzania private sector. They did it for their public organ which was very positive in terms of promoting public-private partnership spirit. That is a very much welcome initiative. So what would go wrong? If a mining corporation operating in Tanzania donated five Land Rovers for the police officers for the police force, what would go wrong? Provided any assistance should not have conditionalities that would eventually jeopardize or undermine the integrity of the force, of the Tanzanian police force. We have got a training college in Dar es Salaam and in Moshi. What would go wrong if somebody comes here, 'oh, you are doing this; I am going to donate one hundred computers for the college.' What could go wrong? So that is in the space of public-private partnership, and I found it healthy for the growth, for the efficiency of the police force. Provided whatever grant, whatever aid, should not be attached with conditionalities that would jeopardize or undermine the national security and the integrity of the organization itself. By the organization I mean the Tanzanian police force. Especially when it comes to training. We know that our capacity in training our local policemen and women, our local gazetted police officers, is quite low, it requires also investment. So whoever comes up with assistance in the training field should be very much welcomed; there's nothing wrong about that. We know, for instance, South Africa; they are highly developed. Look here, the last five months, they arrested a ship from, I don't know, iNDONESIAChina, whatever, a ship doing fishing in Tanzanian waters. We do not have capability to check it out, but I think they used their South African firm to chase and they arrested the culprits. Now they were arraigned in court recently and they were robbing this country of its resources. But you don't have the facility to secure safety and security over our coastal borders. So if you get assistance- be it from Interpol, from other countries, donor communities-that is a very much welcome idea. SCHER: I think that addresses the other question I was going to ask so I think that sort of brings us to the end of my specific questions, but I did want to give you an opportunity for any further reflections, things I may not have already asked you because this has been a wealth of information and advice, both about the specific Tanzanian police reform program, and also more generally about reform programs and the challenges of implementing them. So are there any other reflections you might wish to add or have we covered most of it? BANA: I think you have covered, we have covered a lot of useful ground in this area, but then when you are looking at Tanzania as a country, we have our values that we cherish. Tanzania is surrounded by, I think, nine neighboring countries in all. There is Uganda, Rwanda, Burundi, there is the Congo, Zambia, Malawi, Mozambique, seven countries, and Kenya, eight. But comparatively, if you do a careful assessment, we are a beacon of peace. Our security is sometimes acutely threatened by an influx of refugees from neighboring countries, but what did they find, a home. We have sacrificed a lot. Some of the refugees are criminals; some of them are wanted people in their own countries because they committed a crime. But we have been giving them a safe haven. By giving them a safe haven, that has undermined our own safety and security. I travel often in the countryside. Bus hijacking, in the daylight, once became the order of the day to the extent that the country had to ban buses to travel overnight. But most of the criminals are said to be originating from neighboring countries who were given a safe haven here as refugees. So we are sacrificing a lot. What gives me pride as a Tanzanian is one thing: that we are a poor country but we have been able to remain a beacon of peace in the region, comparatively. This peace is partly attributed to the performance of our law-enforcing organs including the Tanzania Police Force. But again, doing a self-reflection, we realize that we cannot boast that our Tanzania Police Force is performing superbly. No. We have come to realize that the Tanzanian police force is not an island; it requires reforms; but as you said, reforms which are internally driven. Reforms that are owned by the police force itself, and those are the reforms which are sustainable. So in terms of drawing a map of where we are in the region, we still think that we have done better in terms of maintaining peace and security compared to neighboring countries. Of course there are areas where we need to improve, including policing the elections. That is an area that requires improvement, because most of the time the police force has been accused to be pro-ruling party. There are those accusations, they are perceptions. You can't just fight it, but we still need, we can't ignore the perceptions, and efforts have been done to re-orient the police force regarding policing elections so that at the end of the day we have a political leadership that is democratically elected. We have a leadership which has the mandate from the electorate and in order to achieve those objectives the police force must demonstrate impartiality and professionalism in the way they conduct themselves during elections. They shouldn't become spectators; they shouldn't become fans; but they should carry out their duties and responsibilities regarding elections in a professionally acceptable manner. So I think also the reforms address such issues. Again don't forget that since independence, Tanzania has been, we have hosted a lot of refugees in this country, including freedom fighters from apartheid South Africa at the time, then may be Zimbabwe, and that spirit continues until today. I think we are deploying our security enforcing men and women into the fold. They were in Lebanon, I'm not sure, I think they were in Lebanon, they have been in Liberia. They were in Kosovo. Yes, this is a poor country, but in terms of ensuring that our police force participates in international assignments of peacemaking and peacekeeping has also been a very good, very good activity for the country. We are not an island. What is happening in the neighborhood, the international community, we have to look at Tanzania's [involvement] and that gives us an opportunity to also network our police force as well as give them opportunities to acquire international experience and will give them the opportunity for international exposure in terms of carrying out assignments. That is also another area where our Tanzanian police force deserves credit. We are poor, yes; poor as we are we don't refrain when we are called to perform international duties. But all this depends on the leadership. I am not a political spectator, I am a nonpartisan, but I tend to think that the current leadership, the four-phase leadership, is doing the right work, both at the domestic level and at the international level. This is on all fronts, including issues pertaining to enforcing law and order in the country and outside the country. I think they are doing the right work. But again, don't forget, we are a poor country. Tanzania is a poor country. Yes, there have been efforts to reform the TanzaniaPolice Force, but given the resources that are available to us, both financial and human, we can't do it successfully alone, or it is going to take ages. We need the support of the international community,. I think we can reduce the period for reforms to deliver the anticipated results. On our own it is going to take ages, but with unconditional support from well-wishers, I think we can increase the pace to reforming the police force. SCHER: I think that's a very good note to close on and I really appreciate these final reflections. BANA: Thank you Daniel. SCHER: It put some of the things that are happening here in context. It has been a very helpful conversation, and again I thank you very much to meet with two of us. BANA: That's fine, Daniel. It is our duty. I believe in the commonwealth of knowledge, and I believe in sharing knowledge. What I know of course, some of these things you don't read them from books. It is only my perception as a student of human resource management. When you are an academician, you are basically a full-time student in that area. So I am also learning and I believe that whatever we talk, whatever we discuss may help others, may help us to rethink our own opinions and reconstruct the world, especially in our own context. Poor countries, we have got a lot to learn from outside. Our former President used to say, we must-run-while-others-walk because we are back, we are backward. So he wanted to increase our pace, we have got to run while others are walking. SCHER: Very true. BANA: Thank you very much, Daniel, and you are welcome. Innovations for Successful Societies Series: Policing Oral History Program Interview number: T-1 ______________________________________________________________________ 16 Use of this transcript is governed by ISS Terms of Use, available at www.princeton.edu/successfulsocieties Use of this transcript is governed by ISS Terms of Use, available at www.princeton.edu/successfulsocieties