Innovations for Successful Societies An initiative of the National Academy of Public Administration, and the Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs and the Bobst Center for Peace and Justice, Princeton University Oral History Program Series: Policing Interview no.: F1 Interviewee: Agathe Lele Interviewer: Arthur Boutellis Date of Interview: 1 April 2008 Location: Bujumbura Burundi Innovations for Successful Societies, Bobst Center for Peace and Justice Princeton University, 83 Prospect Avenue, Princeton, New Jersey, 08544, USA www.princeton.edu/successfulsocieties Boutellis: Good morning! Mme. Lélé: Yes, good morning! Boutellis: Today is the 1st of April 2008. And I am with Mrs. Agathe Lélé, Chief of Police and Senior Police Advisor with the BINUB - Le Bureau Intégré des Nations Unies au Burundi (United Nations Integrated Office in Burundi). We are in the capital city, in Bujumbura. So, firstly, thank you for granting us this interview with us. Before we begin, I would like you to please confirm that you have given your consent [for this interview]. Mrs. Lélé: Indeed I have given it. Boutellis: Very well. So I would like to start this interview by asking you to give us a brief overview of your career, and mainly what led you to work in the field of police abroad. Mrs. Lélé : Thank you for having selected us to participate in your study where we want to -- by giving our consent -- participate and give our opinion regarding the work that we do and thus we can contribute to improving the work set up for ourselves or maybe eventually for other colleagues. So with reference to my personal background, which you mentioned, I am a police officer by training. I am a police officer since 1982. I have a law degree from college. I took the entrance exams for the Ecole Nationale Supérieure de Police [equivalent of a prestigious police academy] in my country in 1980. I underwent training for two years and I finished my training with a degree, with the degree of a police commissioner. I had a career in the secret intelligence branch of the French police force [comparable to the American FBI] for 14 years and I was appointed to go to the Ecole Nationale Supérieure de Police, where I worked for two years. After that, I returned to the secret intelligence branch of the French police force, where I held the posts of the Assistant Director and Director. Then, I was deployed to the management of the Border Police. I was the Assistant Director of the Border Police and Director of the Border Police. Parallel to my activities as the Director of the Border Police or at the time when I was the Assistant Director of the Border Police, Cameroon was approached to participate in the training sessions based on qualification organized by the Ecole Nationale d'Administration de Paris [a highly selective and prestigious educational establishment in France] and I took part in the entrance exams. I was admitted in 2000. And I trained there for nine months. It was a training session for the executives. And we did our training with the French executives who were admitted in the external round1 and we left with the rank of senior civil servants. So, I finished this training in 2005 and it was sanctioned by a Masters in Public Administration. So when I returned from this training I was also elected to the Executive Committee of the INTERPOL from 2003 to 2006. And in the end...My mandate ended in September 2006 and this coincided with the time when the Department of Peace Keeping was soliciting executives of a high cadre from its (member) states, encouraging the participation of women. And my country accepted that I present my candidacy for the position of Police Commissioner in Haiti. I went for the interviews but I was not selected as a candidate. But my country also supported my candidacy for the position of Senior Police Advisor at the BINUB, where I am holding office since 2007. So that was to answer your question regarding my back ground. Boutellis: Very well. So before we get into the technical aspects of the Reform of the Police, I would like to ask you if you could give us your own description -- when you arrived in Burundi in 2007 -- of the mandate of the mission and its objectives, and also the status of the state in which you found the country at that time, especially the level of public order, crime and maybe the main challenges to the work done by the police. Mrs. Lélé: Yes, I would like to rewind because when I was introducing myself, I omitted one part: I worked in the management of the border police until 2006 and from 2006 to 2007 I was the Director of Training in the National Police Force of Cameroon. So when I arrived in Burundi, I can already tell you, that I came at a time when we were preparing the PBF projects. That is projects that were funded by the Peace Building Fund to support the reform of the security sector, to support the peace consolidation in Burundi. This means that when I arrived my first point of contact was the piloting committee for the presentation of the project to support an operating community national police in Burundi. So it was baptism of fire, if I can call it that, because I was unknown to the mission and I came to the conference room with all the other chefs of the multilateral cooperation, bilateral, and then the management of the mission. But this enabled me to instantly develop a good rapport with the Director General of the National Police, who was a key player in preparing this dossier (project). Hence, I immediately made contact that way. And we started working immediately, without really having an observation period and the opportunity to present ourselves. So it was very beneficial for me. And during a period of about three months, we really concentrated on preparing the project documents and supporting its adoption by the New York Peace Building Fund. However, I found a team of eleven police officers over there that formed a BINUB police unit. And I was appointed as the person in-charge of this unit. The BINUB police unit is unique compared to police units in other peacekeeping missions because the BINUB is a mission that is unique in itself. Generally, in peacekeeping missions the police unit is autonomous. That means the person in charge answers directly to the chief of the mission. However, at the BINUB the police unit is the military unit, they are clubbed within a section. This is how the BINUB was organized. So, the police unit is the military unit. There is a third unit also - light weapons. And a fourth unit called peace and governance, which are all grouped under a category called Reform of the Security Sector. So we have to work together with the Burundi National Police and the bilateral cooperation for training and advice, because the mandate of the BINUB gives us the role of the technical consultant vis-à-vis the Burundi National Police and the Ministry of Public Security. At the same time we also have to reinforce the numbers of the police personnel of the Burundi National Police and this work is not done by the BINUB alone. This work is also carried out with the bilateral cooperation which is very interested in reforming the security sector in Burundi, a sector on which the stability and peace in this country depends. Boutellis: When you speak of bilateral countries, it is mainly Belgium, France and Holland? Mrs. Lélé: And Holland. Even Egypt has done a lot of training sessions. They train the officers of the Burundi National Police. And they mainly train them in Egypt. So they do not carry out local training sessions, these are training sessions in their countries. Boutellis: So, with regard to the BINUB mandate, the technical consultant to... Mrs. Lélé: Yes. Yes. We have worked on among other things... the essence of our mandate... We must help the Burundi National Police to adopt a development plan. This plan was called the Strategic Development Plan. We worked on it jointly with the Dutch cooperation, because when I arrived in Burundi, I found that the Dutch cooperation was busy with leading a development plan for the Burundi National Police and we worked with them -- in an very good collaboration -- and with the Burundi National Police who gradually had to validate suggestions and propositions that we were making to them. And this plan was completed and presented in its final draft form to the Director General of the Burundi National Police in the first fortnight of January 2008 for adoption. We must recognize that the group in charge of coordination from the police worked with us during three months to validate our suggestions for the plan step by step. At present the plan is waiting to be adopted and lies with the Ministry of Public Security. It is waiting to come into effect, but I can already say that certain aspects of this plan are being implemented. For instance, we have a new organizational chart of the Burundi National Police, which was signed in the month of September 2007 and this new organizational chart took into account the suggestions that were made because the general remarks -- when we worked were working on this were -- that it lacked a structure to coordinate the activities of the provincial police forces. So, there was a hierarchal ladder that started from Bujumbura, up to the districts. But in the provinces, there was no relay for coordination. So, the chiefs of the local police forces answered to Bujumbura directly. And at the level of the provinces, there was nobody who could even give instructions or settle the differences that could arise and conflict within the police services or who could coordinate the activities of all the police units at the provincial level. In this new organizational chart we had what we call regional commissioners, who are in charge of coordinating the activities of the police in the five police regions of Burundi. So, this is a big step with regard to the reform. A big step is something that did not exist before. A step ahead. But there are still modifications to be made with regard to the meetings, the training and the sensitization of the personnel so that they clearly understand the new chain of command within the police. At present, the BINUB police unit as an entity, we are working on programs besides the follow-up and the application of the project financed by the Peace Building Fund. We are working on the training sessions and at present we are about to finish the preparation for a training session on investigation techniques. These are ongoing training sessions (professional development) or training sessions during employment. I think it is better to put it this way. I am going to say training sessions during employment to consolidate the acquired knowledge and eventually enhance the capacities of the investigators. We also participated in a campaign last month of ... seminars of sensitization to gender-based violence. You know that matters pertaining to gender-based violence are quite tricky matters here in Burundi. The project to support the Burundi National Police also has a training component. These are technical training sessions because in this project, the Peace Building Fund must supply equipment to the Burundi National Police to improve the security coverage of the country. So there are uniforms, there is transmission material, there is computer equipment, and there are intervention vehicles. We also have to set up operation centers, i.e. centers of transmission where all the information at the regional level will be collected and diffused to the police services. With regard to computers, in addition to the equipment endowment, we also have to establish data bases. Personnel management database, criminal record database, a database for... I cannot recall the third one. But we have to set up at least three databases. So this is with regard to equipment. And in parallel to the support to the Burundi National Police, we also provide a support through a project that is also funded by the Peace Building Fund to the national secret intelligence services. It is another department for security that is in charge of secret intelligence services in the country and we must provide them support to improve the perception that the Burundi people have of this department, which was called Documentation Nationale before the reform. It was a department that formed the witch hunt, if one could call it that. That is to say that it was a political police and the reform changed it into a law-abiding intelligence service. That's what we call the project that we are dealing with - support for a law-abiding national intelligence service. So there is a personnel training component, a reinforcement of numbers in justice, in human rights, in criminal proceedings, which is very important. There are also training seminars to define the role and the mandate of this institution with the goal being to modify the texts of this institution at the end of the seminars. We have not said a word regarding the police commission of the Burundi National Police because we are still following that through a project because without money nothing is really possible. A lot of money is required to lead a reform. So we are following up with that also. We are the project managers of a support project that is charge of the reinforcement of numbers of the police commission of the Burundi National Police, with the goal of reducing the abuse caused by the police. And the police officers. This project is also very advanced. We have finished the first phase of sensitization. We are starting the training phase within the month. And there has also been a phase of reinforcing the operational capacities. We have endowed the police commission with vehicles that enable them to carry out their mission throughout the republic. And we have also given them computer equipment so that they can work according to modern methods. Boutellis: Very well. So you have described a large number of projects that are associated with different domains and they point out certain priorities with regard to the reform of Burundi National Police. And I would like to ask you, what are some of the main challenges that the Burundi National Police faces? And what are the main challenges that your police unit faces via the Burundi National Police? Mrs. Lélé: The challenges that the BNP (Burundi National Police) faces are challenges in terms of training and in terms of equipment. In terms of training, one must recognize that the Burundi National Police is very young in age. The Burundi National Police was created by a decree on the 31st of December 2004. This means that in the number of years, the Burundi National Police is three years old. Prior to that, in Burundi, there were several police departments. There was a gendarmerie, the police called the police for internal security, which we can assimilate with the police for public security, there was a district attorney's office, that was carrying out the role of the 'judicial police' (police judiciaire). These police departments relied on different ministries. The police for internal security relied on the Ministry of Public Security, the DA's office relied on the Ministry of Justice, the gendarmerie relied on the Defense Ministry. As part of the application of the Arusha Agreements it has been decided to dissolve the gendarmerie and bring the DA's office and the police for public security under the same chief - under the same ministry - now it is one sole entity. They are no longer separated and this regrouping led to the formation of the Burundi National Police. The officers were the former police officers. And, I forgot, there was another police service called the PAFE department, i.e. the department of police for immigration and foreigners. It was the PAFE department (la police des frontières et des étrangers) - the police for frontiers and foreigners. The numbers were made up of the former police officers who belonged to these three departments, former gendarmerie officers, former military officers and former members of what they call the PMPA in Burundi -- an acronym, it is a Military Party... I will tell you in the end what that stands for exactly. PMPA. In other words -- in more simple words -- these are the people who are from the rebellion We thus found ourselves with about 20,000 people with varied training and allegiances, who were supposed to become police officers to ensure order and security in Burundi. This is no small task, because amongst all these people one could say that the regular police officers were about 3,500. The former gendarmerie officers were about 4,000. And most of the others were former military officers, former PMPAs. And while they were the most significant in numbers, they were the least trained in matters of the police. So in order to support integration, we organized 'harmonization' training sessions. As the name suggestions, these training sessions were meant to harmonize the level of the members of the BNP. However, it is very difficult to harmonize people who have different levels, especially since the harmonization training sessions are limited in their duration. They are limited by time constraints. They do not even last for three months. These are training sessions that last for less than three months. Boutellis: Less than three months? Could you describe them? Which part of it is in the academy and which part of it is professional development, as you were mentioning earlier? Mrs. Lélé: Since we organized these harmonization trainings, the people who returned from these harmonization trainings were appointed to the police units to work. Some were appointed to police units without having undergone the harmonization trainings because up to that point we still continue to carry out the harmonization trainings. After three years. Since one must recognize that there is a deficit in the training centers. There is not enough structure to admit interns, if one could call them 'interns'. There is not enough structure. So the harmonization training sessions are continued. And you understand that the BNP has police officers who had held posts in the police without knowing what the police really was. So they had been left to themselves and left to the masses. Boutellis: So you have talked about the integration of the former bodies of police, the gendarmerie, the military, as well as the -- Mrs. Lélé: PMPA. Boutellis: PMPA. Was there a procedure at the time, one that we call 'vetting' or re-qualification, whether it was at the technical level, or at the human rights level...? Mrs. Lélé: No. Boutellis: -- or even relating to prior conflicts? Mrs. Lélé: No, there was no vetting. Boutellis: Is the vetting in the plans or is that not a part of the reform post-Arusha? Mrs. Lélé: The vetting is not a part of the planning in that manner. The vetting will be carried out by the 'transitional law' (la justice transitionnelle). That means there is a truth and reconciliation commission that must operate in Burundi. It is being set up. It is only this commission that can do the vetting as part of the truth and reconciliation commission. Boutellis: And so a police force of 20,000 people is... Mrs. Lélé: There have been many people who have been demobilized since then. We have about 17,000 people at present and a census should begin at the end of May 2008 which will really determine the numbers. And this census is financed by the Dutch cooperation and it will be carried out by the Swiss NGO called ICTG, which is well known by the peacekeeping department. Boutellis: And when you say that there were many who were demobilized since then, how was the procedure carried out? Mrs. Lélé: With the support of the World Bank, there is an executive secretary for demobilization, which works with the MRDP - which is funded by the World Bank to enable it to work out the numbers that are advocated by the Word Bank. The World Bank asked to reduce the numbers of the police to a maximum of 15,000. The criterion for demobilization within the police is mainly the age factor. Hence all the people who are within two years of retirement are demobilized. I do not have all the criteria for demobilization in my head. But the age factor regarding retirement, which is important, is a problem with regard to qualification because the former police officers, the gendarmerie officers, who were trained by the predecessors are the ones most affected when it comes to demobilization. So there is a problem with regard to renewing the training which is very, very important in police training, and we are also thinking of recruiting such that the police officers are normal police officers. When I say 'normal' I mean police officers who have undergone an initial training for police officers. Because three quarters of the police force presently in service have not undergone an initial training for police officers. Boutellis: And so the 'normal' procedure of recruitment is a regular procedure that does not have new recruits? Mrs. Lélé: No. Boutellis: It has not started? Mrs. Lélé: No. Boutellis: And the basic training, which I imagine takes place in the police academy or the school for the police, does not exist for the moment? Mrs. Lélé: No. It does not exist except for the former police officers and the former officers of the gendarmerie who has received their basic training before the Burundi National Police force was formed. All those who have become police officers after 2004 have not undergone training in a police academy. Boutellis: You mentioned the World Bank which recommended that the number of the police force be limited to 15,000 people. I imagine that this was negotiated in collaboration with the Burundi government? Is the police component of the BINUB also included in the recommendation for the size of the force? And what are the criteria to decide the size of the police force? Mrs. Lélé: These are the World Bank criteria. I do not know them. Boutellis: I will ask them. Mrs. Lélé: Yes. Yes. Boutellis: So the BINUB does not have -- Mrs. Lélé: No. It was not involved with determining the size of the police force. Boutellis: If you would be so kind as to move on to the technical aspect of the police now. And do not hesitate to merely move on to the next section if you have no particular comment or if it is not applicable. So we talked about recruitment, which is not applicable for the moment since it is one of the future projects. We have talked about the training and the transforming the police into professionals. You have described a certain number of projects, especially projects that are starting or projects that are in the future, and I would like to ask you to describe some of these projects more in the detail, or maybe even the initial results of certain training sessions. Mrs. Lélé: Well, one must recognize that the BINUB police is not the only one that does the training. And it can also be said that the training carried out the BINUB police could be considered as relatively less -- how do I put this -- we are not yet really involved in the training. We have supported what the Belgian cooperation has called the 'Module 1' of training. That is the ethics module. So this is the ethics module. And it is taught to the Burundi police since September 2007. So before 2007 they had not received any ethics training whatsoever. We participated with the Belgian cooperation as the instructors for -- Boutellis: And this is meant for the police officers? Mrs. Lélé:-- the Burundi National Police is made up of three categories of police. You have the officers, the brigadiers and the agents. The officers are about 1,000 and they all speak French. You know that the first language in Burundi is Kirundi. French is the second language. So the officers all speak French and they are trained in French. Language is an important matter. For instance the French cooperation is only meant for the officers. There are language barriers that come up. Because amongst the brigadiers, there is one part that speaks French and one part of them who do not really speak French. So you cannot train people who do not understand French in French. So to train the brigadiers and the agents ...I will tell you that among the agents, it is probably half the agents who speak French. So to avoid discrimination, the training for the brigadiers and agents is done in Kirundi. And what is the result? This means you have training for the trainers who will train the brigadiers and the agents. So we have increased the trainers of the Belgian cooperation who will train the brigadiers and the agents. Thus we have increased the trainers of the Belgian cooperation for the ethics module. Recently -- I told you -- we took part in the sensitization of violence based on gender. We were in charge of answering police officers in the fight against gender-based violence and we have scheduled an 'investigation training' for the month of April. There are other training sessions that will be organized later, but these are the ones that are already on the cards. So the Belgians continue with the training sessions. Module 1 is not entirely over for the brigadiers and the agents. It has been completed for the officers. And they are getting ready for Module 2. I do not have my papers here to tell you the contents of Module 2. The French are also carrying out training. They recently did a training session called 'the mobile grouping in an intervention'. They had a seminar recently on 'police and democracy' and they have a year-long training program for 2008 to set up structures. For instance, they have to set up a commission in charge of training, which has been created, but it's the organization, etc. They have that scheduled and ... Boutellis: Excuse-me, the commission in charge of training, is that a school? No? That's a commission? Mrs. Lélé: No. No. It's what they call 'commissions' here. They are centers of administration. They are central centers of administration. Boutellis: OK. Mrs. Lélé: So you have the center of administration -- Boutellis: OK, so it is within the National Police? Mrs. Lélé: -- yes, within the National Police. Boutellis: A division that - Mrs. Lélé: Yes, a division in charge of training that we call the commission in charge of training. Boutellis: Excuse-me. So you were saying that Egypt... Mrs. Lélé: Egypt does... I do not have my papers with me and that is slightly embarrassing because I cannot give you specific details on some things. Boutellis: Well, it is the general idea ... Mrs. Lélé: OK. They carry out various training programs in Egypt on various themes. Boutellis: So it's for the officers? Mrs. Lélé: Yes, yes. For the officers. Boutellis: And in French? Mrs. Lélé: You know that in Egypt they speak English. I have the spokesperson that was in training recently. These training sessions are in English. Boutellis: You arrange for interpreters? Mrs. Lélé: Yes. To sum up, here are the three parties that provide the training. The Dutch also carry out training. But they face language barriers because they do not speak French as their first language and so they have some difficulty with training, because of the language. They organized two training sessions recently. One training session was for the motorcyclists regarding road safety. The French will also organize a training session in road safety. They have to conduct a training session in -- how shall I put this -- they call it the antiterrorist combat. I do not know how they say... Boutellis: Antiterrorist combat? Mrs. Lélé: Yes. It is a project for the year 2008-- Boutellis: Organized crime? Mrs. Lélé: Exactly! That has been scheduled for 2008. The French also have to build the police academy - l'Institut Supérieur de la Police. A site has been determined and I think the funds have already been made available also. So the work will begin [UNCLEAR 00: 47: 54]. Boutellis: So you have given us a good overview of all the projects, which are numerous, very diverse and specialized. How do you think these projects meet the needs on the one hand -- the real needs of the BNP -- in terms of priority, because as you have said, there are important needs when three quarters of the police officers do not have basic training and also, to what extent are these projects coordinated? I will also ask you in that regard if the BINUB has [Inaudible 00: 48: 30] you in particular? And with regard to that, is the coordination done mainly by the BNP itself and the Ministry for Public Security? Mrs. Lélé: Well, in our mandate we must also carry out the coordination with bilateral and multilateral cooperation. But we must also recognize that the donor countries, if (they have) agreements with the Burundi government, they do not ask the United Nations for its opinion. Hence the coordination that we can carry out is à postériori. Not à priori and we do not exercise an influence on the bilateral agreements. This morning I met German experts who have come with a budget and projects...well, it's an area where they must intervene: to construct police stations. It's true that this is a need but when they left Germany they had already decided the amount in that budget and they had already decided how they would intervene. You must understand that the BINUB cannot carry out the coordination in this manner. However, they consult us, and I talked to them this morning because they wanted us to give them some precise details, to know whether the direction they were taking with their project was the right direction. One must recognize that when it comes to all the bilateral partners, the international cooperation, the BINUB is still considered as a basic human resource on site. So here we already have, with regard to the BINUB -- since I have arrived -- held meetings for international coordination, for help, for cooperation. But during this meeting, the cooperation wanted the coordination to be done mainly by the BNP so that it can apportion all the aid. Unfortunately there are significant malfunction issues and as a result this meeting was scheduled for the end of the month of October - the summons had been distributed -- the meeting was postponed from end-October to the beginning of April. It has not yet taken place. Many events took place. The Director General (Managing Director) of the National Police had planned this meeting. He became the Minister for Public Security. And he wants to have the meeting for coordination but the urgency of things here is such that there isn't one, that we are unable to do the planning. We really work from day to day. And this has a negative influence on bilateral and multilateral aid and even the BINUB support is checked (stopped) by this lack of planning. So there is no action -- even in the short term -- that is on the cards, i.e. I can say that we handle it one day at a time. Boutellis: And with regard to meeting the needs that you think are a priority, you think the BINUB is a resource and so the BINUB has a good so-called global approach of the BNP and of the reform. To what extent do you think that these different projects address the priorities in terms of reform objectives? Mrs. Lélé: The reforme... a structural reform has taken place and now we must train the personnel so that they can adapt to the structures, so that they can work in the new structural framework, and so that they can adequately meet the demands. And each bilateral partner works in this manner. Here, at the BINUB, we had a donor meeting in the month of December, which ... Boutellis: We still have ten minutes? Mrs. Lélé: Yes. Boutellis: OK. So the second part of the interview with Mrs. Lélé. So you were talking about -- there was a structural reform and now the focus is to train the people -- Mrs. Lélé: Training personnel and the bilateral partners are close to the reform. Moreover, there was a coordination meeting with the BINUB, if I can say so, with regard to the reform, which took place in the beginning of the month of December 2007. So the donors are sensitive to and close to the reform. The result is that -- I can say -- all the actions are contributing to consolidate the reform. What is really lacking is a national structure for coordination. They are thinking about it and the need to have a structure for coordination is so pressing that this afternoon the French embassy has invited us to share...to see what the actions that have been scheduled for 2008 look like, to put them on a common platform. Boutellis: There are many different training projects here in planning and you have said that in general it is very expensive - whether it is the Egyptian model of making the Burundi officers come to train them in Egypt or whether it is the training projects here. Do you have any suggestions based on your experience and probably in defining the projects with regard to peace building, the peace building mission, do you have any examples of projects that are not too expensive but which have a significant impact? Mrs. Lélé: In equipment, it is only the equipment related projects that can be less expensive and that can have an impact. But equipment without training, that is relatively... it has no effect because it does not guarantee the correct use of the equipment. We have one case - the Dutch cooperation gifted very important transmission material to help the national police get started. But last week we visited certain police stations where this material is no longer used, probably because they are missing a screw. Boutellis: A maintenance problem. Mrs. Lélé: They tell you that it is not working any more. I do not know why they are saying that. A maintenance problem. As a result we have identified this problem with equipment that we supply - to train for maintenance. But there is also the problem with Burundi's budget, which does not allow you to realistically do it, to do the follow up. As I am telling you, there are significant problems with regard to the budget and planning. Boutellis: When you have budget limitations such as the ones you are mentioning, and there is so much to be done, where do we start? And what are the most important challenges, the most important tasks and how do you prioritize? Short term, medium term or long term, we have talked about some areas: for instance, we talked about the de-politicization; we talked about what is at stake for the managers with regard to maintenance, training, recruitment, etc. There are so many things. How do you set priorities? Mrs. Lélé: The priorities are determined by the sponsors. The priorities are determined by the sponsors because the waiting for answers from the Burundi party is often a long wait and in order to avoid losing the funds, the sponsors determine the priorities based on their understanding. Boutellis: Of all the programs that you have described, and also in the past programs, and also the ones where you have been able to see results, are there any particular experiments or innovative problems that you think deserve special attention? From which we can learn, that have been especially effective or contrarily, those that have been ineffective and which should be avoided? Mrs. Lélé: Well, with regard to the BINUB police unit, we have a problem financing our activities. That means the activities that we must lead do not have funding within the BINUB. This is very important, because for everything that you want to carry out in action, you must have a financial counterpart, and we do not have the budget that allows us to do it. We must seek out funds. That means we need to convince the bilateral partners to finance the actions that we wish to carry out. And when the bilateral partners have their own actions to carry out, of course you understand that they finance their own actions. We can at the most suggest things to them so that they carry them out. This is one difficulty. The peacekeeping department should extend itself a little bit in this regard to see what can be done. And it seemed to me, and I am not sure that this situation here holds on to the form of the BINUB. That is to say that this mission would not have had the ability to take a step back at the time of its creation - it could not have had the ability to take a step back because it was the first experiment of the United Nations. So one cannot have the ability to take a step back. But it appears that the BINUB is a big mission that should have the entirety of all the peacekeeping missions. Probably with reduced numbers but with regard to the mandate, with regard to its action, it should be like other peacekeeping missions so that everyone can truly perform according to the rules of the... The recruitment was not done at the beginning of the mission. The recruitment was done during the mission. This means that I arrived in Burundi with a three to four month delay after my staff. The personnel from my unit that remained [INDECIPHERABLE]. Personnel without someone in charge - that results in... it becomes difficult to regain control, to give instructions. There were after-effects of that period when nobody was in charge. The other difficulty that we have is that the people whom we must employ within the police unit must be qualified people. This means that if ever there is another integrated mission, or if we had to increase the numbers of the mission again, there must be qualified people in the police unit, there must be sharp people. This means people who have probably already carried out the tasks that we will ask of them here in their home countries... that we do ask them to carry out here. So with regard to organization, planning and training, you must have qualified people here. However, the people who are sent here to the BINUB are pre-selected on the same basis as the people who go on ordinary peacekeeping missions. Without a unit chief. Boutellis: And what are the qualifications that I would ask for that would be slightly different, that one needs more for a peace-building mission than for a peacekeeping mission? Mrs. Lélé: I mentioned planning, training and organization. These three ... Boutellis: OK. So these are the specific areas. Mrs. Lélé: Yes. Yes. Boutellis: Will you allow me one last question? Mrs. Lélé: Yes. Boutellis: It was your first mission with the UN -- Mrs. Lélé: Indeed. Boutellis:-- you came into a new mission and so you did not have a predecessor at that time. Did you receive any pre-departure training or any training upon arrival? And what advice would you probably give to your successor? How could s/he prepare for this? Mrs. Lélé: I had an ordinary pre-deployment training. This means that it was with the people who were going to peacekeeping missions. So they gave us the information that they give to everybody who goes on a mission. Nothing is said about the job that you are coming here to do. The job [description] is supposedly in the mandate that you had seen when you were preparing for the interviews. That's it. But the ground reality? No. I had done a pre-deployment training session. I went to the department. I was given an overview of the situation in Burundi. But nobody knew the ground reality. They did not tell me about it because nobody knew it. Therefore, in our end of the mission package, there is an end of mission report. You are not told what to put in this end of mission report. This means that I read my predecessor's end of mission report. I mean the person who was occupying the role of the Chief of police unit in the ONUB (United Nations Operations in Burundi) mission. Boutellis: Who was in peacekeeping? Mrs. Lélé: He was in peacekeeping. I can show you that. He tells you neither what the job is, nor what the difficulties are that you will encounter. No. Boutellis: So probably the first thing would be to change the format of this document? Mrs. Lélé: It would be to change to the format of the mission so that there really is a relay among people in order to avoid the difficulties that you will run into. I am telling you, for me it was a coincidence. I arrived when we were preparing the peace building projects. I entered. They were talking about the police matters. So I felt comfortable working but you could arrive when there aren't any projects being prepared. Then, learning the mission is very difficult. Very difficult. It took me three months to decipher the UN system, the ways of working in the UN and the rapports with the partner. You need somebody who holds you by the hand and you need a lot of middle men to break into the system. And there are bits of information that you need when you arrive. If you do not have them, you have a black hole ahead of you. Because you are given your computer when you arrive. That is all. Boutellis: Do you have a final comment or a question that I did not ask you or a remark? Mrs. Lélé: I will probably repeat what I said there i.e. the management of the peacekeeping missions must extend itself to the handing over of duties, to minimize the delays caused by adaptation. That's the first thing. The other thing: the BINUB mission -- which is an excellent mission -- must be improved in the initial conceptualization. So, if there are examples, if there are other missions of the same kind that will be created, there must be a study -- Boutellis: Lessons... Mrs. Lélé: --lessons learned. And as I am saying, the personal skills are very important for the people in charge because if you are receptive, you can easily make contacts. But if you are not receptive, you will take longer. Without even considering all the stress that comes from the fact that it is a mission without your family. So you have to adapt with the vacation programs, the ORB leave, you must know how to space out your vacations...but in that regard, I admit that even though it is a mission without your family, the arrangements that are made for your relaxation time really enable you to detach yourself from work. This means you work for eight weeks, and after eight weeks you have the right to five days off from the mission, outside the country. The inconvenience is that you have to foot the expenses. So it is expensive. But it does enable you to detach yourself. But in fact when you... when I am on mission as the person in charge, I do not cut myself off from work. I continue working even when I am there. I receive emails and I must reply to them, I must give direction for the work that I have left behind. So you do not really cut yourself off from work. You go away and that is something remarkable. Because vacations are often not structured similarly in [home] countries. You take less time off in such a detached manner than when you are here. Because you must take your five days at the end of eight weeks within the month that they fall in. If you don't take them, you lose them. So that forces you to take the days off, cut yourself off from work, and clear your head. Boutellis: Very well. Mrs. Agathe Lélé, thank you very much. Mrs. Lélé: Well, I must thank you. And I hope that I will contribute to improving the working conditions for others... Boutellis: What you said towards the end has taught us some things. Mrs. Lélé: OK. Boutellis: Thank you. Mrs. Lélé: Well, it is I who must thank you. --------------- ---------------------------------------- --------------- ---------------------------------------- Innovations for Successful Societies Series: Policing Oral History Program Interview number: F1 ______________________________________________________________________ 11 Use of this transcript is governed by ISS Terms of Use, available at www.princeton.edu/successfulsocieties Use of this transcript is governed by ISS Terms of Use, available at www.princeton.edu/successfulsocieties